Worship

#21

Im sorry guys, im not defending us very well tonite. It was a bad nite last nite.

Love you all,

DU

#22

[quote=snowman10]Im sorry guys, im not defending us very well tonite. It was a bad nite last nite.

Love you all,

DU
[/quote]

Go, take care of yourself. Even Jesus had to go chill for a while(and He is GOD!!!) Get some rest, pray, and you’ll be OK. Don’t apologize for this, please. Can we pray for you?

#23

[quote=Momofone]Go, take care of yourself. Even Jesus had to go chill for a while(and He is GOD!!!) Get some rest, pray, and you’ll be OK. Don’t apologize for this, please. Can we pray for you?
[/quote]

I would be honored if you would pray for me, but please pray for everyone else also, including our Holy Father. Please pray for my girlfriend who passed out during a concert last nite. She is ok now though, she was just hot. Also pray for my mother that she will seek help and guidance. And for my two pregnant cousins, one of which is only 15. As for me, just a simple prayer for peace and acceptance from my family as I become Catholic…I cannot wait. But there are others who need the prayers more so than I.

Thank you,
DU

#24

I don’t understand the problem. There are multiple definitions of prayer. One is prayer as in worship - confined to God alone. The other is prayer as in petition or request - confined to those in heaven who are not God. The definition of prayer is seen in several dictionaries, though I use dictionary.com For example, here are a couple, all from that site:

pray cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg ( P ) Pronunciation Key (prhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/amacr.gif)
v. prayed, pray·ing, **prays **
v. intr.
[list=1]
*]To utter or address a prayer or prayers to God, a god, or another object of worship.
*]To make a fervent request or entreaty
[/list]v. tr.
[list=1]
*]To utter or say a prayer or prayers to; address by prayer.
*]To ask (someone) imploringly; beseech. Now often used elliptically for I pray you to introduce a request or entreaty: Pray be careful.
*]To make a devout or earnest request for: I pray your permission to speak.
*]To move or bring by prayer or entreaty.
[/list][/font]Download or Buy Now]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

Main Entry: pray
Function: transitive verb
: to ask for <plaintiff pray**s judgment against the defendants for actual damages> —used esp. in pleadings intransitive verb : to make a request of a court esp. in a complaint or petition <complainant pray**s for declaratory relief> <pray**ing that the judgment be vacated>

Source: Merriam-Webster’s Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

pray

v 1: address God; say a prayer 2: call upon in supplication; entreat; “I beg you to stop!” [syn: [url=“http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=beg”]beg, implore]

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

You will note that these definitions are from different dictionaries. Catholics have no problem whatsoever differentiating prayer as worship (to God); and prayer as a request (such as a prayer “petition” to Mary). Thus, we use the full definition of the word “prayer”, depending on the situation. In my interaction with Protestants of different denominations, I have found that in general, prayer **only **means worship (my sister-in-law told me this for example). Therefore, when discussing “prayer” with protestants, it is important to get their definition of what it entails - you may be surprised at the results. I’ve even had protestants tell me it doesn’t matter what we say or think, if we’re praying to Mary, it is worship - our intention notwithstanding (this has actually happened). I guess our intent doesn’t really matter to some - despite what we say, what the Cathechism says, and what the Church teaches. God Bless,
MBS1

#25

Worship usually refers to specific acts of religious praise, honour, or devotion,
typically directed to a supernatural being such as a god or goddess.

Never is there a claim that Mary is either.

I wish to state here that worship has changed meaning over the years. After all, English is a living language. A point the first definition in a dictionary is usually the most common. I would point out that the first definition in all the dictionaries I used they did not apply to God.

True, however I am unaware of any derogatory or alternate use of the word worship, it is a very unambiguous word who’s meaning is not in dispute.

This is where I disagree with you. Have you never heard of the expression, I worship the ground he/she walks on then. It often said I just worship that picture or whatever. But that is not what we are discussing here. We are aiming at the worship of God. I believe that there must be ambiguity otherwise no one would accuse us of worshiping Mary.

Please note a previous poster

jrabsThank you for providing 2 beautiful prayers for us to ponder. You will notice that they, however, were very bad examples to use to support your argument.

For example, in the Salve Regina prayer ( Hail Holy Queen), we plead for Mary to show us Her Son and lead the way to Him. (As we know that She always lead to Her Son).

In the Memorare, we are asking specifically for Her intercession. Why would we bother asking for intercession if She were on par with Christ.

Nonsense.

Welcom Trogdor
I appreciate this thread. Thanks for starting it. I have been thinking about this for awhile and it is helping to pull things together. Although I don’t have it all sorted yet.

#26

Consider this verse from Luke 14:10, (KJV):

But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.

Do Protestants who use the King James version think that Jesus is saying that if they give up the highest seat at a banquet that their fellow guests will worship them? Of course not, because they know the word is being used in a somewhat archaic way. Same with Catholics and some traditional Catholic prayers. The KJV readers know what it means, and so do Catholics.

#27

[quote=Momofone]Go, take care of yourself. Even Jesus had to go chill for a while(and He is GOD!!!) Get some rest, pray, and you’ll be OK. Don’t apologize for this, please. Can we pray for you?
[/quote]

you have said it so neatly. Jesus Christ is God. thence Mary is the ever virgin Mother of God. end of discussion…

#28

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.

Everything in bold implies an intercessory request, not worship. When we call her clement, loving, and sweet, they are compliments which people can give to each other. No worship here.

Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary that never was
it known that anyone who fled to Your protection, implored Your
help, or sought Your intercession
was left unaided. Inspired with
this confidence, we fly to you, O Virgin of virgins, our Mother.
To You we come; before You we stand, sinful and sorrowful. O
Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not our petitions, but in
Your mercy, hear and answer us
. Amen.

Again, everything in bold is a request for intercession. It is not worship.

#29

[quote=jjwilkman]you have said it so neatly. Jesus Christ is God. thence Mary is the ever virgin Mother of God. end of discussion…
[/quote]

That wasn’t my intention when I was responding to a poster who felt that he was not doing a good job defending the Faith because he had a VERY rough night the night before and so was tired. Wow, I defended the Faith when I wasn’t even trying too!:thumbsup: Usually, I screw it up, that’s why I leave the apologetics to others.

#30

Trogdor
Perhaps a better explaination of the ‘worship’ of Mary & the Saints is in order…

Catholic theology uses the Greek term latria to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia to refer to the honor that is due to saints and other honored people. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals. A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary…hyperdulia.

So, we have:
Latria- The honor & praise given to God alone. This is what would fit your definition of worship.

Dulia- The honor we give to VIP’s (Saints in heaven, important people on earth, etc). This fits the old/British usage of the word.

Hyperdulia- The honor we give to Mary the mother of God. Honor above and beyond what we would give to normal people or saints, but NOT the same type as given to God. This is an extreme form of Dulia…think about the difference in how you would treat your next door neighbor, and the President of the USA…that is the difference between dulia & hyperdulia. Neither is the same as the honor & praise given to God, but the english language doesn’t convey the proper meaning…

Now, as Christians we are called to imitate Christ. Jesus kept the commandments perfectly, correct? So are we to honor his mother & Father as he honored his mother & Father? Just a thought…

#31

The heart of my question is this:
let us say that I say the following in a prayer to Mary:
“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope!”

Now, let us say that I say the following in a prayer to God:
“Hail, holy King, Father of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope!”

My question is this: How can you consider either of these prayers to be anything other than worship?

If I said these same words to a pagan idol carved out of wood would I be an idol worshiper?

???

#32

Is there a difference between the ‘I love you’ that you tell your Wife? Your children? Your parents? God?

They’re all I love you’s. Just meant in different ways. Its the same thing with Mary, the Saints, & God.

Prayer does not equal worship. I know its hard for a Protestant to understand (no sarcasm with that, my wife is a convert), but there is a difference!

We can go round robin all day long about the meaning of the word ‘worship’ or of ‘prayer’ and it won’t make a difference to you. You just have to understand that we do not pray to Mary in the same sense that we pray to God.

#33

[quote=Trogdor]The heart of my question is this:
let us say that I say the following in a prayer to Mary:
“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope!”

Now, let us say that I say the following in a prayer to God:
“Hail, holy King, Father of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope!”

My question is this: How can you consider either of these prayers to be anything other than worship?

If I said these same words to a pagan idol carved out of wood would I be an idol worshiper?

???
[/quote]

Hmmmm worship is directed to a supernatural being such as a god or goddess.


Mary is not God nor is she a goddess. She is a creature the same as we are what is different is that God choose her as his mother and she never sinned. We do not see her other than that. What ultimatly decides is the intent.
As some one else has already pointed out, the words Our life, our sweetness and our hope. I have said of my husband. Am I worshiping him? He wouldn’t think so and when he says it to me. I don’t think he is worshiping me.
You see there is ambiguous meaning here. It isn’t clear cut. I would like to see you answer some of what has been written here. I know it is hard because you are an ice cube in a sea of fire.

#34

[quote=Isidore_AK]Is there a difference between the ‘I love you’ that you tell your Wife? Your children? Your parents? God?

[/quote]

Indeed there is but that is not what I am arguing here what I am arguing is that when someone gets down on their knees bows their head and prays “Our life, our sweetness and our hope!” to someone or something other than God it is worship. Now you can argue the meaning of the word “worship” all day long (something I would really not rather go into due to the fact that I learned the meaning in kindergarten) but in the final analysis worship means what it means, and neither you nor I can change that. True we can choose not to believe it or ignore its meaning entirely but that is a problem on our end, not in the meaning of the word.

That being said I am still not convinced that that is not Mary worship.

#35

[quote=Ann Cheryl]Hmmmm worship is **directed to a supernatural being such as a god or goddess.
**
[/quote]

So when a pagan worships a piece of wood it is not worship due to the fact that it is not a supernatural being but is infact a piece of wood?

A wise man once said: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
I believe the problem here is a confusion of intentions with actions. Are you saying that it is ok to do a sinful action if it is done with the right intent??? Is it ok to go through the action of worshipping Mary if we intend it to be something else?

I’m going to be quite honest with you, if someone said that to me (even if she was my wife) it would seriously weird me out.
No offense, but I don’t know anybody that would say that to their spouse.

I am trying to answer as many points as I can with my limited time.

As for the analogy to ice and fire,
I prefer to think of myself as a tugboat going about my business in the middle of a storm :slight_smile:

#36

[quote=Trogdor]Indeed there is but that is not what I am arguing here what I am arguing is that when someone gets down on their knees bows their head and prays “Our life, our sweetness and our hope!” to someone or something other than God it is worship.
[/quote]

Because Protestants do not have the Mass which is a REAL worship, the highest form of worship they can imagine is prayer. Thus, they are victims of their own spiritual impovershment. How very sad.

Now you can argue the meaning of the word “worship” all day long (something I would really not rather go into due to the fact that I learned the meaning in kindergarten) but in the final analysis worship means what it means, and neither you nor I can change that. True we can choose not to believe it or ignore its meaning entirely but that is a problem on our end, not in the meaning of the word.

As long one hangs on to a kindergarten understanding of language, one will have a kindergarten theology.

That being said I am still not convinced that that is not Mary worship.

And what, if anything, would? :slight_smile:

#37

Trogdor: Your argument has been BURNINATED!!!

:wink:

#38

Trogdor,

Protestant theology teaches that prayer is equal to worship, thus when Catholics pray to the Saints they are worshiping them whether they intended to or not.

But that definition of prayer is unbiblical. Can you quote chapter and verse that says prayer is equal to worship? I’ll save you the time; there is not one verse that says this (although I have seen many stretched and skewed to try to make the case). Minus biblical substantiation of the proof, how can the argument be made?

Here is what the Bible does say: When Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for the ungodly piety he charges them by saying:

“This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me” (Mathew 15:8, RSV).

Here Jesus is telling you exactly what worship is. It is not something that is rendered from the lips, but rather from the heart. Saint Padre Pio, one of the most beloved, devout, and holy men of the 20th century once said:

“Prayer is the key to God’s heart. You must speak to Jesus not only with your lips but with your heart. In fact on certain occasions you should speak to Him *only *with your heart …”

Can you even conceive of what it means to speak to Him only with your heart? I truly wonder if many Protestants can. In that so many believe that prayer is equal to worship, many I fear believe likewise that the only proper form of worship *is *prayer!

I am actually interested in how you might answer the question … Do you think that prayer is eqaul to worship? That the intent of the heart is irreleveant? I ask the question because I do not understand the mindset.

I’m going to pray for you tonight by name. I will simply ask Our Heavenly Father to bless you and guide you in your search for truth. If you would pray likewise for me, I would be most grateful.

Thank you,

Rodney

#39

BTW, my first child was stillborn and has gone to be with God. At the time I could not imagine anything worse. Now, I cannot imagine anything more glorious. My daughter is a Saint in heaven in the presence of the Living God! Flesh of my flesh and blood of my blood, walking hand-in-hand with the Lord Jesus Christ! I know she is praying for our family and sometimes I pray to her to saying:

“Allison, if by the grace of God you can hear this prayer, please pray for your family that loves you.”

By the same argument you made above, I guess you would have to conclude that I worship my daughter.

Do you think I worship my daughter?

#40

[quote=Trogdor]Indeed there is but that is not what I am arguing here what I am arguing is that when someone gets down on their knees bows their head and prays “Our life, our sweetness and our hope!” to someone or something other than God it is worship. Now you can argue the meaning of the word “worship” all day long (something I would really not rather go into due to the fact that I learned the meaning in kindergarten) but in the final analysis worship means what it means, and neither you nor I can change that. True we can choose not to believe it or ignore its meaning entirely but that is a problem on our end, not in the meaning of the word.
[/quote]

  1. It is rather naive to think that a word simply “means what it means”–meanings of words, even seemingly clear words such as worship–change with context. You will find different definitions of worship just by looking at different dictionaries, let alone if you ask theologians from different faiths what worship means (or, better, what it entails).

  2. However, you do raise a more important question, which is–independent of the semantic debate over the meaning of the word worship–is there a meaningful difference between getting on your knees and saying the words “Hail holy queen…” and getting on your knees and saying the words 'Hail holy king…", in both cases seeking (for example) salvation? That is, is there a functional difference?

  3. Catholics would argue there is a difference, and here it is (though I am probably oversimplifying): when we invoke Mary, we are asking Mary to petition God for us. Thus, in the Ave Maria: “Hail Mary, Full of Grace…pray for us sinners…” Thus, we invoke Mary with an honorific title, but ultimately we ask her to pray–to whom? God!–for us. Thus, whatever is granted us comes from God, not Mary. Contrast this with a prayer to God, the Pater Noster: “Our father who art in Heaven…Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our sins.” In this case, we invoke God with an honorific title, but we petition Him directly for our forgiveness–that which is granted comes from God. Thus, we invoke Mary and other saints with a fundamentally different perspective than we when we invoke God.

[quote=Trogdor]That being said I am still not convinced that that is not Mary worship.
[/quote]

  1. And there is probably nothing that anyone here will say that can convince you otherwise. If you focus, as you are, on only certain aspects of the forms of prayers to Mary or the saints (for example, kneeling and using lofty honorific titles), then you will see no practical difference between worshipping God and “worshipping” (we would say petitioning or venerating) Mary. However, if you are willing to see the theological differences in petitioning Mary for God’s help and seeking God’s help directly,then you also see that (as someone else has already noted) we do not honor Mary and God equally, whatever word one chooses to use to describe the act(s).
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