Would it be possible for a human couple with a soul to conceive a child without a soul?

Because you expect people with power to use it in an abusive way that limits freedom in an attempt to prevent suffering, all in the name of “love”.

Your parents are therefore not acting in good will when they have you, because they had the power to prevent your suffering, yet they:
1 gave birth to you knowing you will suffer and die
2 allowed you out of the house where you could catch germs and possibly get punched in the face or get hit by a car, or just make simple mistakes, and suffer.

So by your own insistence, your parents cannot be loving.

Your worldview has a glaring issue.
Or maybe God can be love even while suffering exists.
Which is it?

But as I said:

The problem with the hell-bound soul is not “he will suffer at all” it is “he will suffer infinitely & eternally”.

Think about what you just said…
as you contemplate your own parents weighing the certainty that you will at least die, and possibly go to hell. And still they give birth to you. Hold them to the same standards as you are holding God.
(I’m surprised hell even concerns you as an atheist!!)

The atheist account doesn’t need to consider this. The Catholic account does. As I said:

Ummm, did you just dodge the main point?
Why do you avoid the glaring problem you have, the misunderstanding of power in relation to love?

So I said

And you responded with your diversion about atheist parents which mentioned neither free will nor power.

Which I responded to by saying that atheist parents don’t actually have to weigh their decision against infinite & eternal suffering, so its not a sensible objection to judging God for failing to prevent infinite & eternal suffering. But now you say:

I’m saying you haven’t actually made a relevant point. It may be the case that Catholic parents should avoid having kids because of hell, but that’s not a problem for my position.

Precisely… . Beasts…

Children of God possess similarities with all LIFE… Chimps, Yeast even Plants.

We’ve the potential to Grow Spectacularly almost w/o limit as individuals throughout Life
and civilizations throughout History - And they can not.


If it walks like a duck. Quacks like a duck. More than likely it is a duck. If it looks human it is human. :slightly_smiling_face:
Does form follow function in this discussion?

We’re drawing distinctions without differences here. It’d be whatever you get when you have a human body without a soul. You’re calling it an animal is simply an appeal to emotion, not a substantive objection.

No parents ever ensoul their own child; God does. God is free to abstain. There is no “law of nature” which binds God to always ensoul a human body.

No one wills themselves or their soul into existence.

Only if one avoids the substance contained in the word animal.
There are distinct differences between animals and humans.

I’d disagree that “non-person: human body, no human soul” isn’t different from “person with human body and human soul”. You yourself are noting that it’s something different than a human body + human soul !!

No, really it isn’t. Using Aquinas’ approach, it has all that animals have (i.e., physical body, vegetative soul, sensitive soul) and nothing that distinguishes a person from an animal (i.e., rational soul). Very literally, it is only an animal, and not a person.

Why would God do such a thing?

Good Christian stuff! Very true and humble observation.
Existence is given us, from outside ourselves.
And it is good to exist. Awesome.

Love is fruitful, it pours itself out. God who is ( I Am Who Am), pours out God’s existence to others… because God is love. And that love always allows the freedom of the other. Because love is relationship, not an equation, and not force. If not a free existence, it can’t be love.
(for the same reason that locking a child in a room to prevent suffering is not love, because it enslaves a person).

The ultimate fruit of love would be for God to look at human beings in their wholeness, and participate in the whole of human existence, including suffering.
That is what Christ does. God looks on us who have abused freedom in so many ways, and enters into our human condition. That radical companionship redeems human suffering.
(just like a mother who remains at the bedside of a suffering child)

So explicitly say which differences you’re basing the objection on, and how they make it impossible for God to do this.

So does God create every logically possible being because otherwise he would be unloving?

There is no “otherwise”. Creation is. It came from something (or someone in Christianity). If nothing else is self evident, it ought to be self evident that Christianity is not hypothetical. It has flesh on it, and Christianity asks us to be good observers of reality. What is real?
We exist.
We have a whole range of experiences from joy to suffering.
We are born and we die.
We are free to choose how to respond and act in the world. .
And we are all (including atheists) trying find meaning, purpose, destiny, identity, in all of this.
If the world was strictly deterministic, if God did not allow the freedom of human beings to choose and act with free will…I mean the thought is incomprehensible because again, hypotheticals are not very satisfying.

Christianity is incarnate, not theoretical (although speculations have their place for sure)
Out of all the times our parents had sex, that one time brought you and I forth. And you aren’t the same being as your brother. Each of us is unique in all of human history.

For one thing, animals do not have immortal souls.

No, if the soul is the essential form of the body, then every human being has a human soul. Since every human soul is a rational soul, every human child has a rational soul.

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I would argue that it is not logically possible, because that would be God contradicting the order that he has created i.e. contradicting himself.

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