Would this happen at an Indult TLM???? I am wondering


#1

Look…I am not an opponent of the Novus Ordo…I love it when it is said reverently…but come on…would this happen at an Indult TLM??? I don’t think so…why is that?




http://www.traditio.com/comment/com0209j.jpg


#2

I don’t know - but I do know this - clowns at a Mass are really scary!

Aunt Martha


#3

It makes you wonder doesn’t it??? Mass is not supposed to be Barnum and Baileys Circus…

[quote=AuntMartha]I don’t know - but I do know this - clowns at a Mass are really scary!

Aunt Martha
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#4

[quote=dumspirospero]It makes you wonder doesn’t it??? Mass is not supposed to be Barnum and Baileys Circus…
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But the Barnum and Bailey Circus needs somebody to celebrate Mass for them.


#5

some of the pictures date back to the 70s. the life teen organization has been ordered to stop the abuses in their Masses, and have complied, although individual parish Life Teen programs may still be offending. I have attended the official rite for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass promulgated for the Latin Rite Catholics since the late 1960s (commonly referred to as the Novus Ordo) and have never once in dozens of parishes and dioceses witnessed anything like situations depicted here. Seen plenty of abuses, but not this stuff.

People break laws all the time, church, civil and criminal. Is that a reason to do away with the laws?


#6

[quote=dumspirospero]Look…I am not an opponent of the Novus Ordo…I love it when it is said reverently…but come on…would this happen at an Indult TLM??? I don’t think so…why is that?

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Oh Geez, Friend, get on your flame suit!!!
Someone is going to get on this thread and scream that these kinds of things happen SOOOOOO rarely and it is not fair to post them as normal.

(However, here in the suburbs of Detroit one of our parishes has the Stations of the Cross done by a Mime Group!! LOL! When I asked a friend where this parish was, she said, “Oh that’s the spaceship church.” Right)


#7

[quote=puzzleannie]some of the pictures date back to the 70s. the life teen organization has been ordered to stop the abuses in their Masses, and have complied, although individual parish Life Teen programs may still be offending. I have attended the official rite for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass promulgated for the Latin Rite Catholics since the late 1960s (commonly referred to as the Novus Ordo) and have never once in dozens of parishes and dioceses witnessed anything like situations depicted here. Seen plenty of abuses, but not this stuff.

People break laws all the time, church, civil and criminal. Is that a reason to do away with the laws?
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They do in my diocese. Often. In my last parish, the DRE wanted the children from the “Formation” class to go throught the church with noisemakers for Mardi Gras. Thank you Holy Lord, the new priest put a stop to it.
You may not see it, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t there.


#8

[quote=netmilsmom]They do in my diocese. . . . You may not see it, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t there.
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I don’t doubt it, but it is not there because of the Novus Ordo Mass, it is there because those in charge have no understanding of or belief in the Mass and are deliberately, for their own reasons, desecrating the Mass. The GIRM and the rites are very specific, and those responsible ignore them all the time. Is this a reason to scrap the Mass itself? I think not.


#9

Look…I am not an opponent of the Novus Ordo…I love it when it is said reverently…but come on…would this happen at an Indult TLM??? I don’t think so…why is that?

Been surfing the Novus Ordo Watch website have we? They are some hardocore dissenters on the level of Joan Chittister (just at the other end of the spectrum of course). Obviously any authentic abuses are terrible, but many of the pictures are taken out of context. In fact, there was a thread about the “Cheesehead Mass” photo recently on these forums from someone who was actually there.


#10

[quote=puzzleannie]I don’t doubt it, but it is not there because of the Novus Ordo Mass, it is there because those in charge have no understanding of or belief in the Mass and are deliberately, for their own reasons, desecrating the Mass. The GIRM and the rites are very specific, and those responsible ignore them all the time. Is this a reason to scrap the Mass itself? I think not.
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Good point. If all that was availiable was the TLM, the liturgical abusers would simply abuse it.


#11

[quote=puzzleannie]I don’t doubt it, but it is not there because of the Novus Ordo Mass, it is there because those in charge have no understanding of or belief in the Mass and are deliberately, for their own reasons, desecrating the Mass. The GIRM and the rites are very specific, and those responsible ignore them all the time. Is this a reason to scrap the Mass itself? I think not.
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I agree with you fully. My old knees can’t take the TLM!
But seriously, if the Bishops would get on the abuses, or in my case the Cardinal, life would be much better.


#12

[quote=Genesis315] In fact, there was a thread about the “Cheesehead Mass” photo recently on these forums from someone who was actually there.
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And you take the word of an internet forum poster as absolute?

I could say that I was at the Cheesehead Mass as well and they had jugglers and flamethrowers. Would you believe me?:wink:


#13

yawn Hasn’t novusordowatch.org gotten any new photos yet?

Incidentally, I also live in the suburbs of Detroit (and have for my whole life), and I have never seen anything like this stuff. Although it obviously happens somewhere, it’s not so widespread as others might believe.


#14

I agree that several of those pictures display pretty radical ideas that many of us WOULD consider irreverant. I am not sure how I would feel about seeing things like that at a mass I was attending. HOWEVER, I do want to remind us of a passgae from the bible (not sure where, sorry) in which Jesus states, “*whereever two or more of you are gathered in my name I am there.” *

I also just heard on the Today show (they were discussing a LIFE magazine tribute to JPII) that as a priest, Father Wojtyla would conduct mass on kayak/camping trips for his youth groups using two crossed oars as an altar. When a typical church wasn’t available, he still felt it was important to celebrate the mass. And what a great message to the youth he was leading - to show them that Jesus is always present, and we can pray to/worship with him ANYWHERE!

I am NOT condoning liturgical abuse. BUT I do think that the important message here is that these people are gathering in the name of Jesus and celebrating their faith. Yes, having clowns on the altar and the priest dressed similiarly IS a bit strange, and even perhaps irreverant. I am not sure how to say what I want to…I am having difficulty putting my thoughts into words. I guess I jsut wanted to point out that even though it is not TYPICAL or what we are used it, it may not necessarily be WRONG.

J


#15

But why are clowns at a Mass necessary? Why does one need to be in a clown suit to worship? I think it’s some misguided attempt to reach out to people. But in my experience, clowns are just a total turn-off, and the thought of having them at a Mass is just absurd. If I saw a clown at church, I’d be thinking, “Oh, is that stupid. Why do they think we need this? How is this enhancing worship or making me feel more reverent?”

Aunt Martha


#16

These same photos have been posted over and over and over on this forum. Are you saying the majority of Novus Ordo Masses are conducted like this? Are you saying most that follow the Novus Ordo would accept this? Are you saying that those the majority of those of us who attended Novus Ordo Masses would not be horrified and make are horror known from the priest to the bishop, and furthur if neccesary?

Come on Dums this is really getting old.


#17

[quote=rayne89]These same photos have been posted over and over and over on this forum. Are you saying the majority of Novus Ordo Masses are conducted like this? Are you saying most that follow the Novus Ordo would accept this? Are you saying that those the majority of those of us who attended Novus Ordo Masses would not be horrified and make are horror known from the priest to the bishop, and furthur if neccesary?

Come on Dums this is really getting old.
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Yes.
You know what the most amazing thing I have learned in the past few months? Some of the most anti-C stuff comes directly from Catholics. And in turn people keep cutting and pasting old and usually out of context stuff and it fuels the fire all over again.


#18

Things like this would not happen at an indult TLM- for one reason- everyone who is there is there because they love the TLM, they love their Faith, and a reverent liturgy is extremely important to everyone there. From what I hear, it wasn’t always like that when the TLM was the norm. I’ve heard plenty of stories (from former altar boys) of altar boys rattling off English words that make no sense when put together, and have nothing to do with the Mass, and when they did do it right, they still had no idea what they were saying. I’ve heard stories of priests bragging about how fast they can say mass- while breathing in and out- the attitude was “well, that’s over with, time to go eat”). I’ve heard stories- and have witnessed firsthand (in the Novus Ordo Mass- but I doubt it was any different in the Tridentine Mass when it was the norm) cantors trying (and failing miserably) to sing Gregorian chant- many should have just stuck to the hymns- or learned to appreciate silence. I’ve also heard about parishes where people went for years and sat in the same place, by the same person, and never even knew their name (that happens in Novus Ordo parishes too, but it’s getting better, unfortunately the places where it’s getting better, the liturgy is getting worse).

I like the Tridentine Mass. I prefer the Tridentine Mass done as well as it can be done, over any Novus Ordo- reverent or not. The Novus Ordo allows too many options, and I never know what to expect, and I find myself getting frustrated when priests cut all the corners (i.e. if it’s optional, that means no need to bother with it; if there’s a short form of a prayer or reading, by all means, make it as short as you can; if you don’t HAVE to do something, don’t bother with it). I also think the Novus Ordo was promulgated at the wrong time, and without putting much time or thought into it. I would rather the Novus Ordo, done as well as it can be done, then an auctioneer-style Tridentine Mass, however.

A well-done Novus Ordo could have all of the following

-ordinaries and propers chanted in Latin
-Dies Irae at Funeral Masses, on All Souls’ Day, and on the days during the week before Christ the King. (that’s rare though- most hymnals don’t even bother to publish the Dies Irae)- it’s on the internet somewhere though.
-Lauda Sion, and a procession on Corpus Christi
-Stabat Mater on Our Lady of Sorrows
-Victimae Paschali every day during the octave of Easter- including Divine Mercy Sunday. (yes, it is an option here)
-Communion Rails
-Mass celebrated Ad Orientem
-traditional vestments
-Sanctus bells and incense
-Traditional hymns, chants, and other Sacred works.

…and there are probably other things I can’t think of right now.

Michael


#19

If I has the choice I would only attend a Tridentine Mass.
However, I recognize the New Mass as valid (as I attend it every weekend! :D)

Like someone said, a lot of these pictures are out of date.
The truth, however, is that these abuses have almost swallowed the American Church! We’ll have to hope and pray.

(Are you sure the shoeless picture isn’t of a Low Church Episcopalian group…? :frowning: )


#20

Don’t worry…I am getting flamed pretty bad for this one. :slight_smile: I am now officially a Rad Trad because I was pointing out some abuses…I never said that abuses were not possible or never happen at a TLM…I was just making a point that the abuses I pointed out would NEVER happen at a TLM…granted, I have heard of stories where Priest would go through a Mass in 20 Minutes, etc…yeah, it has its abuses, but no one would ever pull some of the stunts in the pictures I posted.

[quote=netmilsmom]Oh Geez, Friend, get on your flame suit!!!
Someone is going to get on this thread and scream that these kinds of things happen SOOOOOO rarely and it is not fair to post them as normal.

(However, here in the suburbs of Detroit one of our parishes has the Stations of the Cross done by a Mime Group!! LOL! When I asked a friend where this parish was, she said, “Oh that’s the spaceship church.” Right)
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