would you do this?


#1

Okay i’ve been watching lots and lots of documentries about diffrent religious faiths, all the way from evengelical fundies to budhists. now they have done some things that i find very amazing.

a sect of indian faiths live with rats in a temple for there goddess…would you?

another type of relgion (i forget ^_^) put scewers through there tongues,cheeks, and even chins to prove there worship, also some people put hooks through there back and have offerings on them (i.e. apples,cakes, ect.)…would you do that?

and santerians ( a mix of vodun and catholism) crawl for miles to there catholic church that is deticated to i think it was saint. azikial (sorry if i misspell it) would you do something like that?

and finally something that i’ve noticed is that some people just go to church, read a few quotes from the bible…the “sunday christians” as i like calling them, yet they say these other faiths are not as strong as they are

what is the most you would do for your god?


#2

Umm, skewering is not my idea of worshipping God, neither is having rats in a temple. but, all these beliefs are free to do what they want.

as a Catholic, iam not a 'sunday Catholic" there is much more involved in our faith than simply going to Mass once a week. We pray devoutly every day, and some of us do it almost all day.

We recognize our faith as the One True faith handed down by Jesus Christ Himself. We are charitable to our neighbor, as Christ commanded us to be. We love one another as He has commanded us to do.

We love the Holy Trinity with our whole heart, our whole soul, and our whole mind. We honor Christ’s mother, the Blessed Virgin Mary. we do not worship her as that is only for God.

We respect and listen to Christ’s Vicar on earth, the Holy Father, Benedict XVI. He is the shepherd of the flock.

We also believe in the Real Presence at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. We confess our sins, we do penence. So we are far from anything as to what you call “sunday Catholics”.

I would lay my life down for any Catholic or anyone out there. if it is God’s will it is His will. Christ laid down His life for us all.
So i would not even hesitate to do it for Him.

i have true love and true devotion to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Jesus said, Iam the Way, the Truth and the Life. Those are the truest words ever spoken. Without Him, there is no salvation possible.


#3

and i respect that these are your belifes, however i said “sunday christians” which i’ve seen in every sect of christianity…Also there is ‘rumors’ that even the holy trinity is taken from greek paganism because of emporer constantine. For the one true relgion im gonna stay quiet on this one i’ve talked about it alot and am going to take a break from it.

and if you could answer my final question i would apriciate it


#4

[quote=reborn_pagan]what is the most you would do for your god?
[/quote]

For many things I am willing to die; but there is not a single one for which I am willing to kill. - M. Ghandi

For my God I am willing to live. To live and scrutinize my life so as to make corrections to it to live as He would have me live.


#5

Catholicism does not work this way. Every faithful Catholic’s emotive response to this question would be “anything” but God does not uncouple faith from reason. The question really is what is the most you would do for your brother? If you can see why, you’ve moved a long way towards understanding Catholicism.


#6

[quote=reborn_pagan]Also there is ‘rumors’ that even the holy trinity is taken from greek paganism because of emporer constantine.
[/quote]

Let’s quell these rumors, shall we?

Constantine the Great was Emperor of Rome from AD 306 to AD 337. If he was the originator of the idea of a triune Christian God then there would not be a written record of the Trinity in Christianity prior to these dates.

After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).

Ignatius of Antioch
"[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

Justin Martyr
"We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein" (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).

Theophilus of Antioch
"It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom" (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).

Irenaeus
"For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian
"We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit. . . . This rule of faith has been present since the beginning of the gospel, before even the earlier heretics" (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216]).

“And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (ibid.).

“Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other [distinct], the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” (ibid., 9).

“Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent persons, who are yet distinct one from another. These three are, one essence, not one person, as it is said, ‘I and my Father are one’ [John 10:30], in respect of unity of being not singularity of number” (ibid., 25).

And much much, more here.


#7

[quote=FightingFat]The question really is what is the most you would do for your brother? If you can see why, you’ve moved a long way towards understanding Catholicism.
[/quote]

nice :thumbsup:


#8

i’m sorry that you feel that way, i was just asking to what extent would you go to prove your faith…i’m not talking go do genocide in the name of god, thats already been done and over with.

and with that already done, what would you do for your brother?


#9

Any faithful Catholic will tell you that he or she would (at least hopefully–one never knows for sure until put in the situation) do anything, including the things you mentioned, if it were necessary or for some perhaps even if it were a proper way to worship God and show devotion to Him.

The thing you must understand is that we do not believe God has even the slightest desire for us to sleep with rats (for no other reason than to be doing so), to put hooks in our flesh, or to skewer parts of our bodies, nor to crawl for miles to a church (unless that was indeed the only transportation method available). If God did want us to do those things, there are no doubt many who would do them, especially given that many of us are already willing to die for Him if need be. It’s just that God doesn’t want those things of us for their own sake, at all.

Going into the rat infested slums if that’s what it takes to help the poor? Yes. Being tormented for the faith if some oppressive power is trying to force us to renounce it? Yes. Crawl for miles if we can’t walk and there’s no other way to get to Mass? That would exemplify brilliant devotion…but doing any of these things *just to prove that we’re willing *is not God’s will for us; He is very practical when it comes to suffering. We must be willing to suffer if that’s what it takes…but otherwise, to make ourselves suffer randomly would border on the pride of “See what I’m willing to do!” and would be more repulsive to God than pleasing.

I’m not saying that in those other faiths it’s a pride thing. Their beliefs may actually make those actions legitimate or even necessary in their understanding; but Christianity, specifically Catholicism has no place whatsoever for Gratuitous self torment…so to say we would do those things for God would be, at best, a very hypothetical “what-if” context of assuming a totally different reality wherein He actually wanted those things.


#10

Eh? :confused:

Eh again :confused:

Proving faith is not what it’s about my friend. You can only come to a belief in Christ through your own free will, there is no proof, no way of demonstrating what I hold in my heart to you. All I have is to act in a right manner, to treat you with love and justice, to be a channel for peace and offer light to all I meet.

If he was hungry I would feed him.

If he was thirsty I would give him a drink.

If he was lonely or in prison I would visit him.

If he was a stranger, I would bring him to my home.

If he needed clothes I would clothe him.

If he was sick I would look after him.

I would choose to bring love where there is hatred, healing where there is injury, faith where there is doubt, where there is despair, hope, where there is sadness joy. Because it is in pardoning that we are pardoned, in giving to all men that we receive, and in dying that we are born to eternal life.


#11

Hi Reborn!

It seems to me that you are missing the point of your own question. As a fellow wiccan, I would say to look inward for the answer. What would you do to prove your faith?

One of the beautiful things about paganism also holds a trap to fall in (every religion has a different trap you can get stuck in!). The idea of not haveing a structure is an attempt to force you to listen instead of deciding ahead of time… but that’s tricky. In the end, what is your goal? I know what mine is, and in essence it is a state of being. Now before everyone writes me off as a cheesy new-ager who hasn’t really thought much through (and I agree that there are many of those!) let me explain a bit about that philosophy.

The state of being I describe is one of walking constantly in the footsteps of my creator. In many ways my moral code/philsophies etc hold true with the bible. I have no animosity toward christianity at all. I simply cannot call myself christian because I have issues with the word-for-word veracity of the bible; as I do with almost all of history. In the end some things cannot be proven- they must be accepted with a gift of faith which at this point I do not have.

That does not mean that I am not seeking! I try to imagine how an all-loving creator would see my every action. I often fall short of my own standards- much less the creator’s! However, God looks on the heart and I truly believe that the more I seek the more I find. (Also- don’t worry that I am not being witnessed to by a good Christian source. It breaks my parents hearts that I do not believe as they do- but they would rather know the truth than have me lie to them. I promise- not a week goes by without them calling to talk or showing me the love of God in their own way! And I bless them for their devotion and love for me- but God has to give me this answer, not them or any other person.)

Barring the Bible as a perfect source, what else do I know that God has given as a message- complete and unadulterated? Well, what better way to get to know an artist than through his artwork- this earth, his creation.

So, if my objective is a state of being, how do I prove my commitment to that? Is there any external thing that can show this? Not really. The proof can only come through my actions in every situation. There is no one great feat I can accomplish to show internal devotion.

The Christian objective is similar- but they have a particular name and a gift of faith in a particular message. How can you prove devotion to a person (Christ)? How can you prove devotion to any other person? Wife, Friend, Neighbor? It is in your actions, but in all your actions as a whole. Not in one great feat. That is why it is so difficult to judge the heart of another person- because we have not seen their entire lives. Only God has.

So… I respectfully disagree with those religions that choose to see things like walking on coals and putting spikes in themselves as proof of anything. I think they are confused. It seems to me they need to prove their faith to themselves first, or else nothing they do will really prove anything to anyone else.

Besides- what kind of loving god would require that of them?


#12

good point, i know im an idiot im only 15


#13

On the contrary, you are very intelligent. What my friend was saying is that you should be looking more inside you and in your actions towards others and your god rather than trying to “prove” your devotion. God (yours and Mine, since I believe it is the same ultimate creator) would not want that for you.


#14

“Seek preferably not the easiest, but the hardest. Not what comforts you but what grieves you. Not what is best in anything but what is worst.” St. John of the Cross.


#15

Anything but! An idiot would never ask, never seek truth, never seek others opinions for fear of appearing the fool they are. You wouldn’t have asked if there wasn’t something incongrous about it. Most of my questions start off that way - a vaugue discomfort or weird response to something before I ever get to the heart of why…

Your probably farther along in some areas than me and a lot of other “adults” I know.


#16

heh i don’t feel like it, normally i just get called an imature little teenager who needs to keep his mouth shut


#17

That is unfortunate.
You won’t here that from me. I think you should ask questions, that is how you learn. To stop asking questions is idiotic.


#18

Methinks you ask a lot of questions, many that some adults don’t know the answers to or are uncomfortable answering. It’s easier to shut you down than to try to answer tough questions.


#19

thank you reed,rayne,and kitty i’ll start bieng less sensitve to people yelling at me to shut up and jst listen


#20

Good posting everyone, I agree!! Asking questions kind of shows you’re special! Don’t ever stop!
:slight_smile:


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