Wrestling with Tubal ?? Need help.


#1

Hey folks I have a situation I am belaboring. This will be long so please stay with me.

History is, 2 text book births C-section, a year and half later 1 premature birth now in heaven natural birth, 4 months after that miscarriage followed with 2 DNCs. Five months after that text book pregnancy, my wife is 5 months along planned C-section.

Question is, Doc says more children could jepardize the health of mom and potential children due # of C-sections, DNCs. and the stress on her cervix/uterus etc. Delivery will be at our Catholic hospital and Doc is ready to submitt the proper documentation required to perform a tubal based on health of mom and need not to keep having babies.

My wife is willing to proceed with the tubal due to health reasons Doc stated. I myself cannot say I am 100% done with kids but do not want to sacrifice moms health and the potential suffering of losing another child. That was terrible. We practiced the Creighton model of fertility management. My wife is very skeptical of this as a long term method of avoiding pregnancy due mostly to us.

How would you proceed??

Thanks

Eric


#2

It is a grave sin to become sterilized (provided, of course, that you have full knowledge and full consent of the action and its sinfulness).

I don’t know much about the Creighton model, but I am sure it is very reliable. I do know that the Sympto-Thermal method of NFP taught by CCLI (www.ccli.org) has a very conservative option that leaves almost no chance you can become pregnant. If you would become pregnant using this correctly, it would obviously be God’s will.

Do not let your wife become sterilized. It is your job to help her get into Heaven, not assist her into Hell. Speak with someone more knowledgeable than I about the Creighton model and explain to them your full situation, or contact CCLI.


#3

**

Catechism 2399: The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).
**


#4

It is a tough situation, but violating God’s law is never the answer. I strongly suggest that you find a truly Christian pro-life doctor. You need to have a doctor who understands the nature of the human person as more than just a biological system. A truly good doctor can help you through this in a way that will keep you in God’s graces.


#5

I’d get another opinion. No matter how much you may love and trust your doctor, he/ she could be wrong. A friend of mine got scared into sterilization after several difficult pregnancies and deliveries. Years later she consulted another doc who told her he saw no reason she couldn’t have more kids. (the sterilization was reversed and she went on to have 2 more kids w/ no complications)

Sterilization is a serious matter- physically and morally. Read the catechism, talk to a priest and pray. --KCT


#6

First let me say congratulations on the upcoming birth of your baby. How wonderful. Second, I am so sorry for all the pregnancy troubles you’ve had. I am sure it has been emotionally & physically draining on your wife. I sort of know how she feels in that I’ve had 7 D&C’s following miscarriages. Yep… SEVEN. Seven times my heart was ripped out & I delt with the loss of a baby. Unless you’ve been there, you have no idea what that’s like. After the last one I too said, “Never again. I’m done” My husband & I talked about him getting a vasectomy. But like you, it just didn’t quite sit right with us. Well God obviously had something else in mind and as I type this I’m 12 weeks preganant. I’ve never miscarried this late so I’m cautiously optimistic. (this will be our 5th child) Had we gone through with it… I wouldn’t have this wonderful life growing inside me. I’m not going to quote the church or even think about telling you what to do… I am going to say that I think God’s plans are bigger & better than anything we could come up with on our own. The trick is to accept & be at peace with whatever comes our way - so much easier said than done. That is my hope for you & your wife. (and me too?)

God Bless, CM


#7

Eric,

When was the last time you used Creighton? You should be working with a FCP now preparing for after the delivery. As both a FCP and a diabetic, I can tell you that there is nothing I would rely on more in your situation.

I agree with the advice others have written about getting another opinion from a pro-life doctor. I would specifically look for an NFP medical consultant (since they are also trained in the Creighton model). Otherwise, check out One More soul.

May God continue to bless you and your family.


#8

I guess you need to work out how you feel about the church teaching on this matter and if you can live with going against it. I had an indicator of problems after my fourth and ignored it. It was only by a miracle I survived my fifth birth and am here to raise my children and care for my husband. Ultimately, my husband had a vasectomy, which didn’t thrill me, but he is not Catholic and he had no problem with doing so. His first words when I regained consciousness were that a vasectomy was no longer negotiable. He did soften that stance once the shock had worn off but went ahead anyway. I feel sad that we will probably never have another baby but I hope that maybe adoption will come our way in the future. I just felt that my children needed me to be there for them more than they needed me to possibly die having another sibling for them so chose not to oppose the vasectomy. Your situation may not be so dire so you may feel you can work with NFP - a great option if a pregnancy is ok should it happen. It’s a tough issue and it doesn’t help that it’s near impossible, around here anyway, to find a priest that thinks that birth control is wrong. I just don’t see this issue as black and white but would not use abortifacient methods of birth control. Good luck with your decision but maybe this is not the right time to make it?


#9

I also followed advice of 3 doctors, with priest’s okay at a Catholic hospital to have a tubal after the last live birth in a very troubled, OB/GYN history, huge mistake. Not only on physical level (I could write a book), but spiritually, and took a long time for marriage to recover from what became essentially a situation where we had abandoned trust in God. This attitude transformed our relationship, damaged family on many levels, and took many years to heal spiritually and psychologically. I am particularly angry that I did not get full, complete info from doctors, and that priests misled me and outright lied about church teaching and the moral implications of this choice. There were a whole lot of other factors at play than the physical threat, which was great, that it is not proper to go into here, but which I had known then what I know now.


#10

I won’t comment on the moral aspects of tubal ligation, as I leave that to more expert folks.

As a surgeon, I will add that repeat abdomino-pelvic operations, and especially the myotomy involved in caesarean sections, are not without risk. I am not an expert in obstetrics, but from my limited exposure, I will add that repeat miscarriages and DNCs may result in scarring and may increase the risk for ectopic pregnancy, which is a life-threatening problem requiring emergent surgical intervention.

I would encourage you to obtain an opinion from a second obstetrician. Then talk it over with an orthodox priest. Then you and your wife can make an informed decision.

An alternative to surgical sterilization for her is to dutifully practice naturally family planning to reduce the chance of further conception.

Best of luck, and congrats on the new baby!


#11

[quote=EricCKS]Hey folks I have a situation I am belaboring. This will be long so please stay with me.

History is, 2 text book births C-section, a year and half later 1 premature birth now in heaven natural birth, 4 months after that miscarriage followed with 2 DNCs. Five months after that text book pregnancy, my wife is 5 months along planned C-section.

Question is, Doc says more children could jepardize the health of mom and potential children due # of C-sections, DNCs. and the stress on her cervix/uterus etc. Delivery will be at our Catholic hospital and Doc is ready to submitt the proper documentation required to perform a tubal based on health of mom and need not to keep having babies.

My wife is willing to proceed with the tubal due to health reasons Doc stated. I myself cannot say I am 100% done with kids but do not want to sacrifice moms health and the potential suffering of losing another child. That was terrible. We practiced the Creighton model of fertility management. My wife is very skeptical of this as a long term method of avoiding pregnancy due mostly to us.

How would you proceed??

Thanks

Eric
[/quote]

Eric, wow, sounds alot like the pain we went through with our decision to seek a tubal after our fourth baby, feel free to private message me.
This is a hard and touchy subject and one that is between you, your wife and God.
Remember, God wants us to LIVE, he is not a God that would have a woman have baby after baby with the risk of her life, God put good doctors in our lives, if your doctor is this concerned, you have every right to take him very seriously.
What I am amazed with at this website is the fact that everyone thinks because a woman gets her tubes tied, she is rejecting life, no, I’m choosing life, mine and I’m choosing to live for my four kids.
Not only that, I’m choosing to foster children and hope to adopt as many as we can find room for, no joke!!! I am the most open person to life, just because I can’t give birth does not mean “it’s over” far from it, do you know how many children need homes??
There are children who will Never know what it means to have a mom and dad and sisters and brothers.

Again, this is a very hard decision, you will hear so many different answers. My prayers are with you and again, feel free to email me.


#12

“There’s a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.” Prov. 14:12

“Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not rely on your own insight. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will make straight your paths.” Prov. 3:5-6

“Those who believe in God know that evil and death do not have the final say.” Pope John Paul II Sept. 12, 2001

I’ll say a prayer for your discernment. May God bless you and your family for seeking His perfect will in this imperfect world.


#13

KAMZ,

Remember, God wants us to LIVE, he is not a God that would have a woman have baby after baby with the risk of her life, God put good doctors in our lives, if your doctor is this concerned, you have every right to take him very seriously.
What I am amazed with at this website is the fact that everyone thinks because a woman gets her tubes tied, she is rejecting life, no, I’m choosing life, mine and I’m choosing to live for my four kids.

I seriously hope you aren’t encouraging Eric to consider placing himself and his wife at risk for eternal damnation. If you are, then you are not in line with Church teaching and perhaps should refrain from posting on threads such as these.

I know this is never an easy decision. I also know that when we seek to do God’s will and place complete trust in Him and the Church He left us, we will always be happier than if we hadn’t. Even if it is hard. Even if it costs us our life. It would be better to die and go to Heaven now than to stick around here, then still die and go to Hell in 50 years. God’s will is always the best and perfect way.

  1. Therefore We base Our words on the first principles of a human and Christian doctrine of marriage when We are obliged once more to declare that the direct interruption of the generative process already begun and, above all, all direct abortion, even for therapeutic reasons, are to be absolutely excluded as lawful means of regulating the number of children. (14) Equally to be condemned, as the magisterium of the Church has affirmed on many occasions, is direct sterilization, whether of the man or of the woman, whether permanent or temporary. (15) - Humanae Vitae, Pope Paul VI

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

According to this document, so rich a document for something only 14 pages long, the Church places direct sterilization on par with abortion. It is “equally to be condemned” as abortion. Think about that. What faithful Catholic would have an abortion or encourage their wife to have one?

Someone in my life also had a tubal after three kids, the last two of which were c-sections. She had sought the advice of a priest and he apparently told her that, “when God said to go forth and multiply, He didn’t mean now, He meant back then.” God have mercy on his soul. God has used her bad decision and desire for more children (after 16 years of guilt and torturing herself for not finding out on her own what the Church taught) and she has opened her house to foster kids. God uses our bad decisions to do good things. That doesn’t mean we can make bad decisions anyway.


#14

[quote=kristacecilia]KAMZ,

I seriously hope you aren’t encouraging Eric to consider placing himself and his wife at risk for eternal damnation. If you are, then you are not in line with Church teaching and perhaps should refrain from posting on threads such as these.

I know this is never an easy decision. I also know that when we seek to do God’s will and place complete trust in Him and the Church He left us, we will always be happier than if we hadn’t. Even if it is hard. Even if it costs us our life. It would be better to die and go to Heaven now than to stick around here, then still die and go to Hell in 50 years. God’s will is always the best and perfect way.

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html

According to this document, so rich a document for something only 14 pages long, the Church places direct sterilization on par with abortion. It is “equally to be condemned” as abortion. Think about that. What faithful Catholic would have an abortion or encourage their wife to have one?

Someone in my life also had a tubal after three kids, the last two of which were c-sections. She had sought the advice of a priest and he apparently told her that, “when God said to go forth and multiply, He didn’t mean now, He meant back then.” God have mercy on his soul. God has used her bad decision and desire for more children (after 16 years of guilt and torturing herself for not finding out on her own what the Church taught) and she has opened her house to foster kids. God uses our bad decisions to do good things. That doesn’t mean we can make bad decisions anyway.
[/quote]

Excellent post!

My thoughts are the same as the above post. I realize that for you and your wife, it would be a very difficult situation to be in and probably very scary. Trust in God and pray together to lead you to the right decision.

But, don’t discount NFP. It would be reliable and safe. We have used (and teach) the sympto-thermal method with 100% accuracy in postponing and achieving pregnancy. For serious reasons to avoid pregnancy, there are more conservative ways to practice NFP. This is a wonderful alternative to the serious health risks of having a tubal. Please take time to research the effects of having her sterilized. You can find some more information here:
ccli.org/nfp/contraception/tubal.php


#15

All I can say is talk to your Priest and put your Faith in God. Our Lord doesn’t give us more then we can handle. A tubal is for the most part permanent. NFP does work when one follows it correctly. I know of a few people who have had these (tubal or vasectomy) and all of them regret it today, including a friend who had a vasectomy because his wife nearly died twice giving birth to their children, now years later he has prostrate cancer (a side affect no one bother to tell him) I understand its not out of material selfishness, (less kids, bigger car, more money ect.) but out of Love that you are wrestling with this, that was also the case with our friends. Best wishes on the birth of your baby and God bless you.:love: (((hugs))) Kay


#16

[quote=kamz]Eric, wow, sounds alot like the pain we went through with our decision to seek a tubal after our fourth baby, feel free to private message me.
This is a hard and touchy subject and one that is between you, your wife and God.
Remember, God wants us to LIVE, he is not a God that would have a woman have baby after baby with the risk of her life, God put good doctors in our lives, if your doctor is this concerned, you have every right to take him very seriously.
What I am amazed with at this website is the fact that everyone thinks because a woman gets her tubes tied, she is rejecting life, no, I’m choosing life, mine and I’m choosing to live for my four kids.
Not only that, I’m choosing to foster children and hope to adopt as many as we can find room for, no joke!!! I am the most open person to life, just because I can’t give birth does not mean “it’s over” far from it, do you know how many children need homes??
There are children who will Never know what it means to have a mom and dad and sisters and brothers.

Again, this is a very hard decision, you will hear so many different answers. My prayers are with you and again, feel free to email me.
[/quote]

IMO this is a very insidious post that basically is encouraging this sincere head of household and his dear wife to seriously consider introducing into their marriage a serious moral evil. Shame on you. I observe how you want to remove and isolate this practicing Catholic man from the loving authority and pastoral care of the Church by isolating this “hard and touchy subject” to one that is exclusively “between you, your wife and God”. This is the strategy and recommendation of the enemies of the faithful to prey upon the flock and seek to sow confusion, ambiguity, and destruction to the sanctity of the marriage.

God wants us to LIVE holy lives conformed to His will and lovingly protected and guided by authoritative Church teaching and orthodox pastoral guidance. I am sorry for your very unfortunate choice in your marriage, but to continue to call your choice of an intrinsically evil action as “I’m choosing life” is nothing but a lie. There **are **other loving, morally acceptable choices available in this man’s described situation that do not introduce the lie, distortion and destruction of serious sin in their sacramental vows to one another.


#17

I beg you to RUN from any type of sterilization!!!

It will be your greatest regret in years to come. Please don’t buy the opinions (lies) of the world…have total trust in God. Even Job continued to trust after losing all his possessions and his children. That’s why the story of Job is available for all of us to study. Also, your feelings will change for each other if you make this mistake. Maybe not right away, but it will happen. Guaranteed.

At least you are smart enough to seek advice from true Catholics. I never even had a clue when we made our fateful decision. I relied on the advice of doctors, friends, relatives. Go to Joseph. Now there’s a REAL man. He knew how to love his wife without disobeying God’s laws.

p.s. If you are truly afraid of conceiving again, even using NFP may not alleviate your fears…why not abstain? That will truly bring life to the words “take up your cross and follow me”, eh? (I promise, you WILL survive.)


#18

[quote=EricCKS]Hey folks I have a situation I am belaboring. This will be long so please stay with me.

History is, 2 text book births C-section, a year and half later 1 premature birth now in heaven natural birth, 4 months after that miscarriage followed with 2 DNCs. Five months after that text book pregnancy, my wife is 5 months along planned C-section.

Question is, Doc says more children could jepardize the health of mom and potential children due # of C-sections, DNCs. and the stress on her cervix/uterus etc. Delivery will be at our Catholic hospital and Doc is ready to submitt the proper documentation required to perform a tubal based on health of mom and need not to keep having babies.

My wife is willing to proceed with the tubal due to health reasons Doc stated. I myself cannot say I am 100% done with kids but do not want to sacrifice moms health and the potential suffering of losing another child. That was terrible. We practiced the Creighton model of fertility management. My wife is very skeptical of this as a long term method of avoiding pregnancy due mostly to us.

How would you proceed??

Thanks

Eric
[/quote]

I am sorry to hear of the difficult situation confronting yourself and your wife. The only 100% way to prevent future pregnancy is 1) total abstinence, 2) castration—the total removal of either the woman’s ovaries or the man’s testes. All other means of seeking to limit conception will not guarantee that a couple will not conceive.

I agree with the above posters to seek a second opinion to determine the health risks to your wife of a future pregnancy. If the life of your wife is seriously at risk with a future pregnancy, then you and your wife will have to seriously consider your moral options to limit future pregnancy. Otherwise, I would seek the instruction of competent NFP practitioners to assist you and your wife. Here is a web page link to a NFP instructor who offers resource and personal support to couples struggling to wholly honor God in their marriage, no matter how difficult and challenging their situation: catholicmom.com/nfpresources.htm .

Additionally, do not be too swayed or impressed by the majority consensus of clergy, laity and “Catholic” medical professionals and institutions that will offer you “reasonable” immoral “solutions” to your difficult situation.

God bless and prayers.


#19

Notice:

Since the question has been answered, the thread is now closed. Thanks to all who participated in the discussion.


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