Yes, I am sinner , but I am saved sinner.


#1

-What is the difference between the Catholic Moral Assurance of Salvation and Evangelical Absolute Assurance of Salvation ?

-What is the meaning of the statement ,that Evangelicalism often separates profound, life-transforming repentance, and penance ?


#2

The best way to answer this question is to quote Scripture.

Let us look to the first epistle of John. Chapter 5, verse 13 reads, "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. "

Thus, we know that there is some assurance we can have. What is it, though? To answer that, we need to look at John’s statement. he says he has written “these things” that we may know we have salvation. Well, what are the “these things” that he has written?

Looking at the preceding part of the letter, we see John telling us:

[LIST]
*]If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. (4:12)
*]If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? (4:20)
*]Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. (4:15)
*]Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. (5:1)
*]By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.(5:2)
[/LIST]

This is just a general sample, there are more verses I could have listed. The point is that the things John wrote to us so that we know if we have eternal life are a series of statements about how to identify when we have life. If we keep God’s commandments, we have life. If we believe in Christ, we have life. If that, whosoever that, if the other thing. What John is doing here is not telling us that all who believe in the Son of God should be assured they have eternal life, what he is doing is giving us a list of things to look at to help determine we are actually living in Christ, to see if we do have eternal life. This is all in the context of John beginning the letter by telling us that, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

Reading the entire letter of John through, one can see that the letter is a letter written to believers to encourage believers, help them to grow, and ensure that they really are in salvation. This is why the beginning of the letter begins with an exhortation to confess if we need to and the end tells us to look out for “sin that is unto death.” The entire letter is meant to help believers to remain in Christ, by exhorting them to confess and remain in Christ, giving them advice on how to determine if they are, and warning them about ‘sin unto death’ at the end.

This letter perfectly describes Catholic moral certitude: if we, by God’s Grace, remain in Him, we will have salvation - He will not let us down. The Protestant idea of assurance sortof skips over the first 4 chapters of the epistle and gets straight to “you may know you have eternal life,” saying that we have eternal life reagardless of those things John spoke about in chapters 3 and 4.


#3

But we have it already by faith.
You are saved by faith, and its not from the deeds , that you wouldn’t boast.

Ok.
We can quote the Scriptures from the different sides.
Do You think there is the contradiction between the Theology of James and Theology of Paul , who insisted for the Salvation by Faith in the Epistle to the Romans ?


#4

I’m glad you asked.

This is not something that can be answered briefly. I am a big believer that one of the reasons for the various confusions that pop up is when people try to do it. This is not an issue that takes a paragraph to explain.

Therefore, I point you to this article: www.soladeiverbum.com/gracealone.shtml. It is not that long, but it will take a little bit of time to read. That being said, I have heard nothing but good things about it, and people have told me it really cleared up so many things for them.

What it does, is to go through what the Catholic Church actually, officially teaches about this question, and to go through the Bible rather thoroughly to explain it from the ground up, as well. It specifically addresses what Paul teaches, what James teaches, and all these questions of yours. I actually almost pointed you to it in a few of your other threads. If you have any more questions after you read it, let me know! :slight_smile:


#5

There is no contradiction, because Paul did not claim that we were saved by Faith ALONE.

We are saved by our belief, if and only if, we also follow His Commandments.

And Paul did not say anything different, nor could he. It was the same Holy Spirit that spoke through both Paul and James. The Spirit does not contradict Himself.


#6

I just can not get the meaning of the Moral Assurance of Salvation.
There is absolute assurance.
My sins past, present, and future- are forgiven.
I am saved forever.

How do You experience the Moral Assurance of Your Salvation ?


#7

If your past sins are forgiven, then why does John tell us to confess our sins?

Further, lets look at James 5:

Jam 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
Jam 5:15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

The “you” to whom James is referring are Jews who have come to Christ, people he calls his “brothers”, as he makes clear in the earlier part of his letter. Nevertheless, he says that they have sins which can be forgiven. Thus, we can see that future sins are not forgiven us until we commit and then repent of them.

John writes the same thing in his first epistle, in chapter 1 verse 9:

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

He, too, is writing to believers, and so again, we see that believers have sins that God has yet to forgive.

Read 1 John straigth through - it’s not that long. You will see that the entire book is about how to tell if we are walking in Christ’s light or not, so that we can confess if we are not.

The test John gives us in 1 John is the test Paul speaks about in 2 Corinthians 13:5: "Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?–unless indeed you fail to meet the test! "


#8

Why do You think that Justification and Sanctification is one ?

What is the Penance in the Catholic Language ?


#9

Have you read the article I linked to below? That ought to answer the first question for you. If you have read it and it doesn’t, then ask again and I’ll try to explain it better.

The second question really can’t be answered without you understanding the first.


#10

Yes, Thank You.
Its seems more logical , more realistic.
man must cooperate with this Grace, and must not resist or reject it, as the Council and Scriptures teach,
-… Catholics respond with James, who insists “you see that man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”

  • The Scriptures are very, very clear that man cannot be justified without love.
    :thumbsup:

#11

How does that compare to Gal 5

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Suppose, God forbid, that you commited one of these sins and did not repent of this.

Paul says that you would not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Is Paul lying?


#12

Yes.:crying:
You see ?, the Scripture is like two sided coin in this question:eek:


#13

No it is not.

There is nothing in Scripture about all of one’s FUTURE sins being forgiven prior to any repentance.

Each and Every sin needs to be repented of.

And it doesn’t matter what someone did earlier in their life if they later reject their faith and\or cease to follow God’s commandments.


#14

Let’s approach this differently. We have shown passages that say that one must repent of each sin, including future ones.

You are worried Scripture is a two-sided coin. If this is true, then there must be passages that say that all future sins are forgiven when you come to Christ.

So, what are they? Can you show us where in Scripture it says that ones future sins are forgiven when one comes to Jesus? If you can, then I can understand why you’d think it was a two sided coin! Let’s take a look at them, and see if we can figure it out? :slight_smile:


#15

This is how I have always explained the comcept of forgiveness,repentance and how could god sacrifice for all our sins…

Suppose, for a second, you win a lottery. The prize is unlimited Airline tickets. All you have to do, is request the ticket at the time it is needed and it will be given…

So too with repentance

Christ Died for all our sins (equates to winning the airline lottery) When you sin, you still needed to ask for forgiveness, but it wont automatically be given if you don’t ask

Poor Mans analogy, but maybe it helps

In Christ


#16

I know that no matter how grievous a sin I commit, if I repent sincerely, Jesus Christ will forgive me, just like He did Peter, who betrayed Him but repented, and like the father welcomes his son with open arms in the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32). He will never turn me away, if I turn to Him.

That’s how I can have assurance.


#17

Paul might not be the best reference for this, Brendan. For instance, in Romans 3:28 … “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law”. There are others, but I threw this in because it’s one of my favorites.

Charlye :slight_smile:


#18

“Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels . . and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains . . . and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.”—1 Cor. 13: 1_3

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”— Mt. 7:21

“So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.”—James…2:17

“But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.”—James. 2:18

“Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble.”— James. 2:19

“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?”—James. 2:20

“Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?”—James. 2:21

“Seest thou that faith did cooperate with his works and by works faith was made perfect?”—James. 2:22

“And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God.”—James. 2:23

“Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?”—James. 2:24

“For even as the body without the spirit is dead: so also faith without works is dead.”—James. 2:26

“And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? Who said to him: Why askest thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.”— Mt. 19:16,17


#19

We are saved by grace only (Eph 2:8, Jn 6:44), through Christ only (Acts 4:12, 1 Tim 2:5), through faith (Eph 2:8) working through love (Gal 5:6, 1 Cor 13:13, 1 Cor 13:2), apart from works (Eph 2:9) and apart from observing the law (Rom 3:28). If we have faith working through love (Gal 5:6), however, we have to keep God’s commandments (Jn 14:15, Mt 19:17) because that is what matters (1 Cor 7:19) and we will repent (Acts 3:19) but if we don’t, our faith is dead and useless (Jam 2:17, Jam 2:20, Mt 7:21, 1 Cor 13:2), and we will perish (Luk 13:3).

How’s that for a summary? :smiley:

Edit - the verses, so you don’t have to look 'em up:

(NASB)

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

John 6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Acts 4:12
"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

1 Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

1 Corinthians 13:13
But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

John 14:15
"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Matthew 19:17
And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is (B)the keeping of the commandments of God.

Acts 3:19
Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

James 2:20
But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Matthew 7:21
Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Luke 13:3
"I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.


#20

What James is saying in (James 2:24) is that genuine faith (which is the only ground of justification before God) will always be a faith that produces good works before men as evidence of true faith. The good works themselves will not justify anyone.
(James 2:24) as compared to (Romans 4:2) “For as Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.”

A study bible I have reconciles both verses this way:
“These are two aspects of one truth. Paul speaks of that which justifies “before God”, viz. : faith alone, wholly apart from works; James of the proof “before men”, that he who professes to have justifying faith really has it. Paul speaks of what God sees—faith; James of what men see—works, as the visible evidence of faith. Paul draws his illustration fron (Gen. 15:6); James from (Gen. 22:1-19).
James’ key-phase is “you see” (Jas.2:24), for men cannot see faith except as manifested through works.”


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