YOGA...ooer!


#292

According to who?

Not for me.

According to who?

Rome is in Europe not the East. .

Who said it isn’t? Faith came from Jesus, in the East, and via St. Peter and the subsequent Popes, the Church was formed that came to Rome. And to the world, of course.

No. It is more self transcending. Seeking Christ also has its inner direction.

Same thing.

Inner prayer and the like is guided by God through the Sacraments, good works, fasting, prayer, not self-seeking self-empowerment.

Why do you have such a problem with balance and wellness and contrast it to God in our lives?

I just explained in the last post. It is not a problem, it is an understanding.

You sound a little Manicheist with such a negative view of the body.

Not really. I understand the perspective perfectly well. This ultra-modern understanding of Christianity is what the Bible warned about and what early saints fought against. It is Yoga which is negativity dressed up as something positive.

Sure, the body is to be treated with care and looked after as far as one needs, and in marriage to be one with the spouse. Outside of that is vanity and obsession, pretty much. It is as much about priorities as anything else.

I have been doing yoga stretches for 40 year and they have been nothing but a blessing.

Well done.

I thank God for leading me to them. And the inner calm that comes as the body relaxes promotes a letting go of the self, an offering of the self in prayer.

I think if this is the case it is because you are paying attention to people like St. John of the Cross as opposed to the Yogis, and if you cancelled the Yogis out, you would probably go even further. Faith is not about gaining a permanent state of wellbeing. Much of faith is about suffering and embracing all of what life throws at us. However, what you may or may not have achieved is not mine to argue with. You say it did, then great.

The best yoga is not about how far we stretch but about how selfless we become. It can be an offering of our bodies to God if we make it part of our prayer. But there are plenty of people who do it just for the good it does both for mind:

health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/yoga-for-anxiety-and-depression

and body
nccih.nih.gov/health/yoga/introduction.htm

Thanks for these links! But do please bear in mind that health organisations are secular so one cannot go by these alone.


#293

Yoga, just like anything can be taken to a distorted extreme. You seem to target such extremes as the norm for yoga. For most of us Catholics who practice it, it is one form of self discipline in the larger context of our Christian lives. As such,at least for me, it does have spiritual value, like fasting or bowing. It is a way to more fully engage the body in prayer and thus more totally give ourselves to God. Others are satisfied with the documented health benefits alone.

Blessings and peace to you, Friarchipps.


#294

Just as with everyone else, some Catholics are against tatoos and piercings, some are not. It’s a matter of personal preference and opinion.


#295

More to reflect upon:

  1. Human experience shows that the position and demeanor of the body also have their influence on the recollection and dispositions of the spirit. This is a fact to which some eastern and western Christian spiritual writers have directed their attention.

Their reflections, while presenting points in common with eastern non-Christian methods of meditation, avoid the exaggerations and partiality of the latter, which, however, are often recommended to people today who are not sufficiently prepared.

The spiritual authors have adopted those elements which make recollection in prayer easier, at the same time recognizing their relative value: **they are useful if reformulated in accordance with the aim of Christian prayer. ** For example, the Christian fast signifies, above all, an exercise of penitence and sacrifice; but, already for the Fathers, it also had the aim of rendering man more open to the encounter with God and making a Christian more capable of self-dominion and at the same time more attentive to those in need.

In prayer it is the whole man who must enter into relation with God, and so his body should also take up the position most suited to recollection. Such a position can in a symbolic way express the prayer itself, depending on cultures and personal sensibilities. In some aspects, Christians are today becoming more conscious of how one’s bodily posture can aid prayer.

  1. Eastern Christian meditation has valued psychophysical symbolism, often absent in western forms of prayer. It can range from a specific bodily posture to the basic life functions, such as breathing or the beating of the heart. The exercise of the “Jesus Prayer,” for example, which adapts itself to the natural rhythm of breathing can, at least for a certain time, be of real help to many people. On the other hand, the eastern masters themselves have also noted that **not everyone is equally suited to making use of this symbolism, since not everybody is able to pass from the material sign to the spiritual **reality that is being sought. Understood in an inadequate and incorrect way, the symbolism can even become an idol and thus an obstacle to the raising up of the spirit to God. To live out in one’s prayer the full awareness of one’s body as a symbol is even more difficult: it can degenerate into a cult of the body and can lead surreptitiously to considering all bodily sensations as spiritual experiences.

  2. Some physical exercises automatically produce a feeling of quiet and relaxation, pleasing sensations, perhaps even phenomena of light and of warmth, which resemble spiritual well-being. To take such feelings for the authentic consolations of the Holy Spirit would be a totally erroneous way of conceiving the spiritual life. Giving them a symbolic significance typical of the mystical experience, when the moral condition of the person concerned does not correspond to such an experience, would represent a kind of mental schizophrenia which could also lead to psychic disturbance and, at times, to moral deviations.

That does not mean that genuine practices of meditation which come from the Christian East and from the great non-Christian religions, which prove attractive to the man of today who is divided and disoriented, cannot constitute a suitable means of helping the person who prays to come before God with an interior peace, even in the midst of external pressures.

It should, however, be remembered that habitual union with God, namely that attitude of interior vigilance and appeal to the divine assistance which in the New Testament is called “continuous prayer,” is not necessarily interrupted when one devotes oneself also, according to the will of God, to work and to the care of one’s neighbor. “So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God,” the Apostle tells us (1 Cor 10:31). In fact, genuine prayer, as the great spiritual masters teach, stirs up in the person who prays an ardent charity which moves him to collaborate in the mission of the Church and to serve his brothers for the greater glory of God.

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19891015_meditazione-cristiana_en.html


#296

This topic reminds me of Harry Potter debates. I’ve heard Catholics praise them and others vilify them. I’ve heard priests speak adamantly against and others who openly admit to enjoying them thoroughly.

As another example, consider the Tridentine Mass. Some might think it the most beautiful Mass they have ever attended and others would never come to church if that was all that was available.

In the end, we Catholics are not cookie-cuter people. What is a faith boon to one’s sensibilities may well be a faith obstacle to another.


#297

And that is something we should be glad about.


#298

Hi. Thanks for joining. If the Pope decrees something we are to find out why he said it. This is acting responsibly upon our faith.

It seems people don’t really respect the line of St. Peter, from what I’ve read in this thread so far. But this is piety, a gift which becomes a little hazy after practicing non-Christian, pagan-esque rituals.

As another example, consider the Tridentine Mass. Some might think it the most beautiful Mass they have ever attended and others would never come to church if that was all that was available.

I don’t think this is the case at all with the Tridentine Mass. I’ve never met anyone who doesn’t like the Old Mass, it is just that Trad. Caths ruin and spoil it for everyone else like spoilt little children.

In the end, we Catholics are not cookie-cuter people. What is a faith boon to one’s sensibilities may well be a faith obstacle to another.

Btw…no wonder that apparent priest in the heresy video didn’t like Deauteronomy:

“Take care that you be not ensnared to follow them, after they have been destroyed before you, and that you do not inquire about their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods?—that I also may do the same.’ You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.”

Deuteronomy 12:30-31’

Not taken from my usual CTS Bible, I hasten to add, so the translation might be out.


#299

Oh, you mean those blessed commandments and beatitudes. A right pain are they? Listen, there are rules which constrict and there are rules which free us. There are guidelines which lead onto a very wide path and there are guidelines which help us to focus on what is important: Eternal life. And this is not a world for people who wish to be dressed up in cotton wool. Maybe for the people who are vulnerable physically or mentally, they do need taking care of. But those who have their mental faculties working in fairly alright order need to hold strong to the narrow path and not fall away because Satan prowls around like a roaring lion. He does. This is not taught much now and so people don’t guard against him with spiritual armour. With Yoga, it can even bring an aversion to prayer. People get hurt by it. Whether by all forms I don’t know, but if one branch is harmful and one apparently isn’t, they are still aimed from the same false spirit. Maybe God has protected you from harm, maybe He does want all religions to come together one day in unified prayer, except for the fact that we have been told, and St. Paul warned us also, to beware of babbling like the pagans do. This is from the Bible. It needs no deep interpretation because it has been said plain and simple.

If you want to keep doing it well that is that but to say there is no danger is false. A complete falsehood. There have been so many accounts that unless you don’t read you must know this!

But when has the Our Father, the Hail Mary and putting one’s hands together as we have been taught ever put us in danger of Kundalini and dangerous energy boosts. Never, ever.


#300

Thank you, and you!


#301

None of this says what you think it does because otherwise it would contradict what I posted earlier also from the CCC!

  1. Human experience shows that the position and demeanor of the body also have their influence on the recollection and dispositions of the spirit. This is a fact to which some eastern and western Christian spiritual writers have directed their attention.

Well within Christianity - East and West.

Now I am green…

[quote]Their reflections, while presenting points in common with eastern non-Christian methods of meditation, avoid the exaggerations and partiality of the latter, which, however, are often recommended to people today who are not sufficiently prepared./

Exactly.

You’ve misinterpreted.

The spiritual authors have adopted those elements which make recollection in prayer easier, at the same time recognizing their relative value: **they are useful if reformulated in accordance with the aim of Christian prayer. **

For example, the Christian fast signifies, above all, an exercise of penitence and sacrifice; but, already for the Fathers, it also had the aim of rendering man more open to the encounter with God and making a Christian more capable of self-dominion and at the same time more attentive to those in need.

Self-dominion isn’t self-empowerment!

This actually, apart from fasting, does not comment on non-Christian practice.

In prayer it is the whole man who must enter into relation with God, and so his body should also take up the position most suited to recollection. Such a position can in a symbolic way express the prayer itself, depending on cultures and personal sensibilities. In some aspects, Christians are today becoming more conscious of how one’s bodily posture can aid prayer.

Still doesn’t mention Yoga.

  1. Eastern Christian meditation has valued psychophysical symbolism, often absent in western forms of prayer.

Yes, the operative word being “Christian”!

It can range from a specific bodily posture to the basic life functions, such as breathing or the beating of the heart. The exercise of the “Jesus Prayer,” for example, which adapts itself to the natural rhythm of breathing can, at least for a certain time, be of real help to many people

.

This is not Yoga. It is Christian prayer and meditation. In fact, the breathing is normal.

On the other hand, the eastern masters themselves have also noted that **not everyone is equally suited to making use of this symbolism, since not everybody is able to pass from the material sign to the spiritual **

reality that is being sought.

I still see no comment about Yoga in the positive sense. This is talking about how putting the body into positions can cause issues.

Understood in an inadequate and incorrect way, the symbolism can even become an idol and thus an obstacle to the raising up of the spirit to God.

To live out in one’s prayer the full awareness of one’s body as a symbol is even more difficult: it can degenerate into a cult of the body and can lead surreptitiously to considering all bodily sensations as spiritual experiences.

Like Yoga.

  1. Some physical exercises automatically produce a feeling of quiet and relaxation, pleasing sensations, perhaps even phenomena of light and of warmth, which resemble spiritual well-being.

Yes, exactly, RESEMBLE! Satan can appear as an angel of light, remember?!

To take such feelings for the authentic consolations of the Holy Spirit would be a totally erroneous way of conceiving the spiritual life.

Boom shakalaka boom. Exactly, brother Christian.

Giving them a symbolic significance typical of the mystical experience, when the moral condition of the person concerned does not correspond to such an experience,

would represent a kind of mental schizophrenia which could also lead to psychic disturbance and, at times, to moral deviations.

You don’t exactly aid your viewpoint here. This is the result as have many people blogged complaining about such issues.

That does not mean that genuine practices of meditation which come from the Christian East and from the great non-Christian religions, which prove attractive to the man of today who is divided and disoriented, cannot constitute a suitable means of helping the person who prays to come before God with an interior peace, even in the midst of external pressures.

This is talking about methods of CHRISTIAN EASTERN PRAYER NOT NON-CHRISTIAN EASTERN PRACTICES! :wink: What the CCC is concerned about is the Christian mantra that is widespread in the West and helps a lot of people. This is just simple sitting if need be and resting in the Lord. They are obviously concerned with ultra-modernists who like those that practice Yoga might make the position the basis of the prayer turning it into a form of cult worship!..

like Yoga.

It should, however, be remembered that habitual union with God, namely that attitude of interior vigilance and appeal to the divine assistance which in the New Testament is called “continuous prayer,” is not necessarily interrupted when one devotes oneself also, according to the will of God, to work and to the care of one’s neighbor. “So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God,” the Apostle tells us

(1 Cor 10:31). In fact, genuine prayer, as the great spiritual masters teach, stirs up in the person who prays an ardent charity which moves him to collaborate in the mission of the Church and to serve his brothers for the greater glory of God.
[/quote]

Hence, my comment about washing up. Which is what I’m trying to do here!

Bye green.


#302

Yes, we all have choices. And some are responsible ones that look out not just for oneself but for the good of others and there are some choices which lead to perdition when seeking to achieve power for the self:

“You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo marks upon you: I am the Lord.” – Leviticus 19:28

I take it we do all believe here that the Holy Spirit spoke through prophets in the OT and that Jesus said He didn’t come to do away with our heritage but rather to complete it?


#303

Read it again

That does not mean that genuine practices of meditation which come from the Christian East and fromthe great non-Christian religions, which prove attractive to the man of today who is divided and disoriented, cannot constitute a suitable means of helping the person who prays to come before God with an interior peace, even in the midst of external pressures.

In the context of paragraph 28. Some physical exercises


#304

You are completely taking this out of context to try and promote Yoga.

Where does it say Yoga? What they are not saying is for the Christian to practice non-Eastern spirituality as this would make you a heretic! :smiley: They are saying that mankind, can do this in order to come before God - this is an evangelical pronouncement to show that God can be found in other religions, it is NOT saying that the Christian is to practice Yoga!

The West needs less Yoga and more of this:

religious-vocation.com/redemptive_suffering.html#.VPpFCo1yb4g

Real Christianity!

Sainthood!

Salvation!

Heaven for eternity!

:rolleyes:


#305

#306

religious-vocation.com/redemptive_suffering.html#.VPpQII1yb4h

:thumbsup::slight_smile: :

real peace and joy;

the Holy Spirit not the false spirit;

in a spirit of sacrifice not gain;

Christianity!


#307

Really?! Have you ever done it?

Take of your prejudiced lenses and read it again.

It is about “the man of today who is divided and disoriented” (not just non-Christians) attracted to “genuine practices of meditation which come from the Christian East and from the great non-Christian religions” finding “suitable means of helping the person who prays to come before God with an interior peace, even in the midst of external pressures”. In the context of paragraphs about “physical exercises” How does it not apply to yoga?

This has become tedious. Thanks for the discussion but I think I need to stretch out some stress.:eek:


#308

Never needed to, sitting in the Lord’s presence is enough for everyone. Prejudice is not the right word, duty-of-care would be the correct expression.

And you’re welcome. :slight_smile: Maybe after 40 years wandering in the desert one might consider the possibility of renouncing all participation in non-Catholic practices. If I had done Yoga even once, the Sacrament of Reconciliation would be the next step! Non-Christian practices avoided by the Christian, for the benefit of the Christian, and the rest of the Church, is not a matter of opinion, it is not each to their own, it is a commandment.

Take care.


#309

I searched and failed to find any papal decree, “Catholics are not allowed to practice Yoga.” Please direct me to this. I have read the links you provided earlier (spiritualDirection dot com) and while laden with opinion, they were very thin on references and facts.

What I do see is a caution against engaging in the religious aspect of yoga, as well as other practices. However, in most western practice, from what I’ve seen, that has been stripped out. Furthermore, Catholics are not stupid. Certainly we can discern and reject on our own.

There is a lot of disrespect for the teachings of the Church these days. People claiming to be Catholic and supporting abortion and contraception, for instance. There is also a lot of misunderstandings regarding what the church teaches. Evolution is fact and homosexuality is itself not sinful are two such examples. However, I don’t see now that disrespect applies here. Please explain.

I have met people who dislike it. I have actually heard, after such a Mass, comments such as , “I’m glad not all Masses are like that!” You can not take your personal experiences as the total experience of the entire Catholic community. I admit I don’t understand you last line above about the Trad. Caths. so maybe my problem is there.


#310

That is simply not true. Rejecting such practices is clearly a personal crusade for some, a commandment which you have pronounced, but it is not a commandment of the Church.


#311

You ignored my question

Originally Posted by Michael Mayo
It is about “the man of today who is divided and disoriented” (not just non-Christians)
attracted to “genuine practices of meditation which come from the Christian East and from the great non-Christian religions
finding
“suitable means of helping the person who prays to come before God with an interior peace, even in the midst of external pressures”.

In the context of paragraphs about “physical exercises

How does it not apply to yoga?


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