You cannot pronounce behavioral judgement against a populous


#1

I am debating my Muslim friend who says the USA is evil or maybe even that Christians have done great evils as a group.

I am about to make the comment, "You cannot pronounce behavioral judgement against a populous.", but thought about God in the OT judging the behaviors of groups of people.

Please help me to understand.


#2

[quote="GodHeals, post:1, topic:325253"]
I am debating my Muslim friend who says the USA is evil or maybe even that Christians have done great evils as a group.

I am about to make the comment, "You cannot pronounce behavioral judgement against a populous.", but thought about God in the OT judging the behaviors of groups of people.

Please help me to understand.

[/quote]

Tell him if he doesn't like the USA to move to a more Muslim-friendly country.


#3

Just convert him, or as lost sheep says advise him to move elsewhere...


#4

Reply to the individual that God gave mankind the gift of free will and that it is not the right of anyone, any group, or any religion to forcibly take that away. Only God has the authority to take it away. Others may provide direction, but not force.


#5

You should have a copy of the Koran on your desk so that you can evaluate the lens through which he evaluates the United States.

In addition, buy the books of Robert Spencer ... in fact, he has a new book out which is being promoted by Catholic Answers.

not-peace-but-a-sword-the-great-chasm-between-christianity-and-islam.html

shop.catholic.com/not-peace-but-a-sword-the-great-chasm-between-christianity-and-islam.html

www.jihadwatch.org

ROBERT SPENCER is the director of Jihad Watch, a program of the David Horowitz Freedom Center, and the author of twelve books, including two New York Times bestsellers, The Truth About Muhammad and The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades) (both Regnery). His latest book is Did Muhammad Exist? An Inquiry Into Islam's Obscure Origins (ISI).

Spencer has led seminars on Islam and jihad for the United States Central Command, United States Army Command and General Staff College, the U.S. Army's Asymmetric Warfare Group, the FBI, the Joint Terrorism Task Force, and the U.S. intelligence community.

Spencer is the Associate Director of the American Freedom Defense Initiative (AFDI). He is a weekly columnist for FrontPage Magazine and has written eleven monographs and well over three hundred articles about jihad and Islamic terrorism. In addition to the above books, he is the author of Islam Unveiled: Disturbing Questions About the World's Fastest Growing Faith (Encounter); Onward Muslim Soldiers: How Jihad Still Threatens America and the West (Regnery); Religion of Peace? Why Christianity Is and Islam Isn't (Regnery), a refutation of moral equivalence and call for all the beneficiaries and heirs of Judeo-Christian Western civilization, whatever their own religious or philosophical perspective may be, to defend it from the global jihad; Stealth Jihad: How Radical Islam is Subverting America without Guns or Bombs (Regnery), an expose of how jihadist groups are advancing their agenda in the U.S. today by means other than terrorist attacks; and The Complete Infidel's Guide to the Koran (Regnery). He is coauthor, with Daniel Ali, of Inside Islam: A Guide for Catholics (Ascension), and editor of the essay collection The Myth of Islamic Tolerance: How Islamic Law Treats Non-Muslims (Prometheus). He is coauthor, with Pamela Geller, of The Post-American Presidency: The Obama Administration's War On America (Threshold Editions/Simon & Schuster). Spencer's books have been translated into many languages, including Spanish, Italian, Finnish, Korean, and Bahasa Indonesia.

Along with his current weekly columns, for nearly ten years Spencer wrote the weekly Jihad Watch column at Human Events. He has completed a weekly Qur'an commentary at Jihad Watch, Blogging the Qur'an, which has been translated into Czech, Danish, German, Italian, Spanish and Portuguese. He has served as a contributing writer to Steven Emerson's Investigative Project on Terrorism. His articles on Islam and other topics have appeared in the New York Post, the Washington Times, the Dallas Morning News, the New Criterion, the Journal of International Security Affairs, the UK's Guardian, Canada's National Post, Townhall, Middle East Quarterly, WorldNet Daily, First Things, Insight in the News, National Review Online, and many other journals.

Spencer has discussed jihad, Islam, and terrorism at a workshop sponsored by the U.S. State Department and the German Foreign Ministry. He has also appeared on the BBC, ABC News, CNN, FoxNews's O'Reilly Factor, the Sean Hannity Show, the Glenn Beck Show, Fox and Friends, and many other Fox programs, PBS, MSNBC, CNBC, C-Span, France24 and Croatia National Televison (HTV), as well as on numerous radio programs including Bill O'Reilly's Radio Factor, The Laura Ingraham Show, Bill Bennett's Morning in America, Michael Savage's Savage Nation, The Sean Hannity Show, The Alan Colmes Show, The G. Gordon Liddy Show, The Neal Boortz Show, The Michael Medved Show, The Michael Reagan Show, The Rusty Humphries Show, The Larry Elder Show, The Barbara Simpson Show, Vatican Radio, and many others. He has been a featured speaker at Dartmouth College, Stanford University, New York University, Brown University, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, the University of Virginia, the College of William and Mary, Washington University of St. Louis, the University of Wisconsin at Madison, the University of Wisconsin at Milwaukee, and many other colleges and universities.


#6

[quote="GodHeals, post:1, topic:325253"]
I am debating my Muslim friend who says the USA is evil or maybe even that Christians have done great evils as a group.

I am about to make the comment, "You cannot pronounce behavioral judgement against a populous.", but thought about God in the OT judging the behaviors of groups of people.

Please help me to understand.

[/quote]

You can most certainly make judgments about the general patterns of behavior of a nation. For example, I doubt anyone here would object to my saying, "China commits massive violations of human rights." So if he's referring to the USA as a political entity, he's entitled to that view, right or wrong. Now, if he's saying all Americans in general are evil, that's a sweeping generalization based on monumentally insufficient information.

He's also sort of right that certain groups of Christians (we don't all cooperate directly in this world, so to implicate all or even most Christians would be another faulty and unwarranted generalization) have indeed collaborated in great evil.

However, most every nation and every religious group has been responsible for great evils, simply because we're all human and we're all sinners. You should have no trouble finding examples of evils perpetrated by Islamic sects and nations.

Also, I hope you'll forgive the grammar nazi in me, but the word in your thread title
should be "populace." "Populous" is an adjective. :o


#7

Thank you for the suggestions. He doesn't live in the USA, but not sure that is relevant anyways. I am trying to best understand how God would pronounce behavioral based judgement on a group of people, including their children. I thought about that when I was going to say it is wrong to judge a group of people.

I saw this: catholic.com/magazine/articles/judge-not

We are called to judge behavior, just not the eternal relation of that person to God.


#8

[quote="GodHeals, post:1, topic:325253"]
I am about to make the comment, "You cannot pronounce behavioral judgement against a populous.", but thought about God in the OT judging the behaviors of groups of people.

Please help me to understand.

[/quote]

(I am intentionally keeping out of the Islam part of this debate).

I am likely wrong, but it is my understanding that in the Old Testament God judged and destroyed large groups of people many times (the flood, all the cities under the ban, etc.). It was implied that all of the people in these societies were unholy. There are a few that were saved in each instance (Noah's family, Rahab, etc.) that "deserved" to be saved.

To relate this to the United States, each one of us is personally responsible for the lack of effort we have given to make our country right in the eyes of God. Voting is a bare minimum. Teaching our children, helping with elections, and spreading the Gospel are all needed. It would be really hard for most of us to honestly say we have no part in the sinfulness of our nation.


#9

[quote="GodHeals, post:1, topic:325253"]
I am debating my Muslim friend who says the USA is evil or maybe even that Christians have done great evils as a group.

I am about to make the comment, "You cannot pronounce behavioral judgement against a populous.", but thought about God in the OT judging the behaviors of groups of people.

Please help me to understand.

[/quote]

The first thing to do is to chunk down and continually ask questions. Responding at this level will do you no good. To control the conversation you keep asking questions like.

How do you know the USA is evil?

You will here get at what it is that probably allowed him to conclude that.

Have you spoken to all people in the USA?

Here you will get access to understanding and perhaps a specific that will allow you to say, ok I see where you got this...it may be leadership, it may be sentiment..only he knows.

Christians? What do you mean by Christians? How do you define someone to be Christian?

When you do this you will ultimately get to the source of belief and find that the generalization is about something specific. If you don't do this then you are debating a generalization and taking the defensive you cannot win rather take the offensive by asking these questions.

You can counter with, turning that proposition back on him by asking..

As a Muslim, if I condemned all Muslims by the act of one Muslim would you agree that I was correct or incorrect in viewing Muslims as problem people?

If I conemned all Muslims by the act of a few what would you say that means?

If I condemned all Muslims by the act of a few what would that say about me?

Here you get your friend to see the generalization in reverse and how he would counter the argument that he asked you to defend.

If you do this and get answers and find yourself stumped, come back and I will explain where to take the conversation...


#10

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