Yuzu Asaph


#1

Hi!

I think this will generate quite a rsponse. I watched a documentary last night on TV and they claim that Jesus went to India?! They say that Jesus did not die on the cross, but was made to look like He did. So Jesus was actually alive when the Apostles saw him - and thus was able to touch His wounds and for Him to eat?! :frowning: After this He went back to India and died in 80 AD.

I did some research on the internet and found this verse in the Quran:

“And for their saying: we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, Messenger of Allah, and they killed him not, nor did they cause his death upon the cross, but he was made to appear to them as such.
And certainly those who differ therein are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge about it but only follow a conjecture; and they did not kill him for certain: Nay, Allah exhalted him in his presence.
And Allah is ever mighty and wise.”

  • Quran, Al Nisa 4, 157-158 For a translation see Ali, Maulana Muhammad, translation and commentary,
    The Holy Quran - Arabic Text, Lahore, 1951 pp230-232.

This then made m realise that this is just a load of Muslim fundamental rubbish!!! I respect all other religions. Why cannot people “get a life” and stop looking for flaws in our religion - which are NOT there! I suppose this goes to show that Catholism is truly the correct God given religion. If it were not so, people wouldn’t have anything to say about our religion!

Interested to hear other peoples comments.

God bless…


#2

The theory that Christ wasn’t killed on the cross is ridiculous. Remember that by executing Jesus the Romans were potentially quelling unrest and preventing rebellion.

So in order for Jesus to survive the cross there are two options. Firstly the Romans let him go for some reason. Pilate would have known the political consequences of letting the people think their messiah had survived the cross. Unless palate wanted to end up on a cross as well he would have made darn sure that Jesus was “taken care of”.

Secondly……the recycled “swoon theory”. That somehow Christ survived the cross. The Roman Empire was extremely efficient at carrying out executions, the idea that they “stuffed one up” is ridiculous. That’s like a man who is sentenced to “hang till dead” but survives any way, IT JUST CANT HAPPEN!

Even if the execution somehow failed, there is no way Jesus could come to the apostles a few days later. If I come off a trail bike I’m sore for weeks. In Jesus case he was beaten to within an inch of his life, then hung in the desert sun. Someone who went through something like that would not be up and about within a few days.

Jokes like this remind me why I’m Christian. :rotfl:


#3

Thanks Levi86 :clapping:

It is people like you that keep me captivated to this site!

:blessyou:


#4

He didn’t just go to India!

I’ve seen books that say he went to Tibet. And the Americas. And even the good old United Kingdom.

He certainly was a well travelled man.

Or perhaps not.

There’s even a book claiming that the post resurrection appearances were actually ectoplasm conjured into human form by spiritists. Obviously the crucifixion worked in that book.


#5

Asteroid, the Bible says He went to other places. I think some Catholic mystics, such as Anne Catherine Emerich have documented where He went. She says He at least went to a Christian community that was started by the 3 Magi, but still very much pagan. Asteroid, you are in Wales? You country is becoming Catholic again. Jump on the peace train!
Patrick


#6

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#7

[quote=TheRaiders]Asteroid, the Bible says He went to other places. I think some Catholic mystics, such as Anne Catherine Emerich have documented where He went. She says He at least went to a Christian community that was started by the 3 Magi, but still very much pagan. Asteroid, you are in Wales? You country is becoming Catholic again. Jump on the peace train!
Patrick
[/quote]

Please - chapter and verse from the Bible about where Jesus went. I can’t say I’ve noticed him straying further afield than Samaria except for his enforced trip to Egypt. Please give me the verse that would say he went to India/Tibet/England/Wales or anywhere else people have decided he went.

I’ve read the Bible quite a few times but somehow have missed the verse that says Jesus was a globetrotter.

As a Catholic, I do not have to believe any revelations to people like Emmerich. Too many private revelations contradict each other so I’d prefer to take Scripture as the trustworthy source of revelation. That said, I do want to read the Dolorous Passion at some point. Here’s an online version:

jesus-passion.com/DOLOROUS_PASSION_OF_OUR_LORD_JESUS_CHRIST.htm

Or a plain text version:

gutenberg.org/files/10866/10866.txt

Quick question - is there any difference between the texts of the Dover Books publication and the Tan Books publication. I only ask as the Dover one is half the price. A paper version would be easier for me to read.

If you could let me know the chapter of this work (or other place in her writings) that Jesus goes off and meets the magi please do so and I’ll look it up. I looked up all occurrences of “magi” in the text and didn’t find Jesus visiting them in any community. Perhaps the reference is elsewhere, or not to magi.

As for Wales becoming Catholic again, do you have any statistics about that? It most certainly isn’t becoming Catholic again just at the moment so was this a word of prophecy?

In fact from 2003 to 2004 the mass attendance for Wales decreased by 667 (or just under 2%) which is an ongoing trend. Do you know something about Wales that those of us here in Wales aren’t privy too? Of the whole population of Wales, 1.2% attend mass. The statistics don’t say how frequently they attend mass, or how the statistics are arrived at.

It would be wonderful for Wales to become Catholic and I pray for this regularly. As yet, there is no numerical sign of it. The lapsed catholics aren’t returning to the church in swarms. The non-catholics aren’t converting except in small numbers (including myself). Please pray for Wales.

And just what is “jump on the peace train” meant to mean? I am having trouble not relating this to old Cat Stevens songs. Confused.


#8

waaaaaa haaaaaaaa !!! I think this is too funny! What do you think the other religions (non-christian) would do to debunk christianity? They can’t just poof magically make the gospels go away so they take bits and pieces of it and change it just enough to make it sound plausable…this is how Satan works. Have you ever heard the comment that the greatest this Satan ever did was convince folks he didn’t exist? He is doing the same thing here. Trying to make us believe that Jesus the Christ did not die for our sins and therefore our salvation is in question. Now, if and when they do that, we would have to be open to their religion if we indeed were concerned about our salvation. However, as other folks have said: the Romans were very efficient at crucifixions and would never have left him alive. In fact they were so in fear of Christ living that they beat him almost to death too. Then they post a guard…this was not the norm, why would it be? Dead people just don’t get up and hurt them. But… They made sure he was dead and that his body was guarded because they were afraid that either he would rise or that folks would steal his body and declare that he was alive. Most likely, the latter would be the reason that they posted guards. Now, if the apostles had stolen his body, the gospels and indeed all of Christianity would look totally different today. Instead the apostles were scared when they heard that he was gone. Why do you think this is?
Another thing that should immediately tip you off is that the Moslems said that they buried him and his mother together? Why would they do this? First she did not die at the same time as her son, second, they didn’t think he was the Christ, the annointed. So why would they take special care of his burial? Now for the greatest reason…Islam was not even around at that time…in fact it wasn’t around for about 600 years after the death of Christ so take that for what it is worth.


#9

Asteroid, I am not privy to even a fraction of the information on Wales as you are. I only assumed since I have been reading that Anglicans are joining the Church and other rumors of a growing number of people not content with the Anglican Church, that it was happening in your area. Maybe it was wishfull thinking. I traveled with a Brittish priest this summer and he said he could see a mass conversion in England sometime soon. Jump on the peace train was a reference to Cat Stevens, one of my favorite artists. I was tired, so pay no attention to what I wrote. Oh well, that’s another topic.
I’m looking up the reference in the Bible. If my memory serves me correctly, in one of the Gospels it doesn’t say where Jesus went, only that He left the Apostles for a time after His Resurection and mentioned something about another flock.
Anne Catherine Emerich is pretty legit, I’m not sure about the other mystics. In the book devoted to her visions concerning Mary, she mentions a group set up by the 3 Magi. I don’t have the book on me, but I will in a week. In the footnotes (which are extensive, and may not be covered in the index) the author mentions other visions of her’s in the 3-volume book about Jesus where she mentions Him going to them after His Resurection. Sorry for the vagueness, I will investigate further.


#10

If this were the case , which it is not, then why would the apostles have died for a liar.


#11

Of course the origional posting is not true. Its laughable. But we should not dismiss the possibility that Jesus went anywhere on earth not only during the years not accounted for in the Bible, but also in the time not accounted for after His Resurection. I have no hard evidence right now, so we’ll have to wait till, if and when I do.


#12

[quote=TheRaiders]Asteroid, I am not privy to even a fraction of the information on Wales as you are. I only assumed since I have been reading that Anglicans are joining the Church and other rumors of a growing number of people not content with the Anglican Church, that it was happening in your area. Maybe it was wishfull thinking. I traveled with a Brittish priest this summer and he said he could see a mass conversion in England sometime soon. Jump on the peace train was a reference to Cat Stevens, one of my favorite artists. I was tired, so pay no attention to what I wrote. Oh well, that’s another topic.
I’m looking up the reference in the Bible. If my memory serves me correctly, in one of the Gospels it doesn’t say where Jesus went, only that He left the Apostles for a time after His Resurection and mentioned something about another flock.
Anne Catherine Emerich is pretty legit, I’m not sure about the other mystics. In the book devoted to her visions concerning Mary, she mentions a group set up by the 3 Magi. I don’t have the book on me, but I will in a week. In the footnotes (which are extensive, and may not be covered in the index) the author mentions other visions of her’s in the 3-volume book about Jesus where she mentions Him going to them after His Resurection. Sorry for the vagueness, I will investigate further.
[/quote]

You are wrong. None of the gospels say anything remotely like that.


#13

In the gospels, we know Jesus appears several times. In between these times, where is He? That is the question.
The Bible records the risen Jesus appearing 11 seperate times. One of these appearances supports my faith that He appeared to many people who are not recorded. That is His appearance to Paul, who was not an apostle or a disciple.
I think, in a similar manner He garnered support for His cause without the aid of His disciples by appearing in the lands they would be entering.
Damascus, where Jesus talked to Paul is around 150 miles from Jerusalem, where Jesus also appeared. Distance did not seem to be an issue with the risen Christ. Ever try walking 150 miles in a short amount of time?
Acts 1:3 I think implies that some of His appearances are not even mentioned. John 21:30-31 tells us that much of what Jesus did after His resurection is not recorded. John tells us that we are given all we need to know that “Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, so that through this faith you may have life in His name.” So they gave us the essentials.
In the gospels, John writes about how Jesus appeared to the disciples at the Sea of Galilee, which is 60 miles Northeast of Jerusalem.(John 21:1-23) Jesus was all over the place in those 40 days. As for Jesus saying He had another flock, I have only heard that from a friend and He couldn’t tell me where it is written.
I will research where Anne Catherine Emerich said this community set up by the magi.


#14

[quote=TheRaiders]In the gospels, we know Jesus appears several times. In between these times, where is He? That is the question.
The Bible records the risen Jesus appearing 11 seperate times. One of these appearances supports my faith that He appeared to many people who are not recorded. That is His appearance to Paul, who was not an apostle or a disciple.
I think, in a similar manner He garnered support for His cause without the aid of His disciples by appearing in the lands they would be entering.
Damascus, where Jesus talked to Paul is around 150 miles from Jerusalem, where Jesus also appeared. Distance did not seem to be an issue with the risen Christ. Ever try walking 150 miles in a short amount of time?
Acts 1:3 I think implies that some of His appearances are not even mentioned. John 21:30-31 tells us that much of what Jesus did after His resurection is not recorded. John tells us that we are given all we need to know that “Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, so that through this faith you may have life in His name.” So they gave us the essentials.
In the gospels, John writes about how Jesus appeared to the disciples at the Sea of Galilee, which is 60 miles Northeast of Jerusalem.(John 21:1-23) Jesus was all over the place in those 40 days. As for Jesus saying He had another flock, I have only heard that from a friend and He couldn’t tell me where it is written.
I will research where Anne Catherine Emerich said this community set up by the magi.
[/quote]

Where is he? He is God. He is everywhere!
Your friend is wrong and the reason he can’t tell you where it is written is because it isn’t written anywhere.


#15

Maybe the other flock being referred to here is from the Good Shepherd discourse John 10:14-16 where Jesus says,

“I am the Good Shepherd, and I know Mine & Mine know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for My sheep. And other sheep I have that are not of this fold. Them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice, and there shall be one fold & one Shepherd.”

This doesn’t mean Jesus traveled all over, but that He would send His apostles out to the ends of the earth to bring others into the fold - the Catholic Church.

I always thought he was talking about those on other planets. I’d better put a Hee Hee smilie here or people will think I’m being serious, so :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley: :smiley:


#16

Well there we go. Thistle you denied the existence of such a passage, but now you can not.
I, too, after seeing it, do not think it refers necessarily to himself traveling to his other flocks. But He may have. Why are you so dead set against it?
Jesus is and always was God, but even after the Resurection He was also fully human. That is why it sounds like an unimaginative cop-out to say He is everywhere, and therefore couldn’t have traveled bodily to other places when He wasn’t with the apostles.
Maybe this will make you see the error of using God’s omniscience in your quip against my simple harmless speculations: The Protestants fall back on this same argument every time when Catholics try to help them try to accept that Jesus is the bread and wine of the Eucharist. After you read them the Bible, and tell them the power of the Eucharist, and tell them of the Church’s history, they say “God is everywhere, He is not especialy in any bread and wine.” They say we are limiting God to specific areas.
They think they are empowering God, but, in fact they are taking away one of His most powerful traits when dealing with us mortals: His very personal nature. Part of that is him being conentrated into definite areas that we can percieve as humans. He concentrates Himself in Saints, and in beautiful parts of nature. He told us He is in the least of us when we help them, or shun them. He says He is present when two of us gather in His name. But most especially, He concentrates Himself in Jesus, and in the Eucharist. Then, when we take the Eucharist, He concentrates Himself in us. One can always say “But He is everywhere”, and it can’t be denied. But its thinking like that that dulls our senses to where God is especially located.
So if you want to debate with evidence that Jesus didn’t go anywhere when He wasn’t with the apostles, that is fine. But please don’t use the same old “God is everywhere” to limit anything He might do (I’m not saying for sure that He went anywhere else after His Resurection).
Patrick


#17

[quote=TheRaiders]Well there we go. Thistle you denied the existence of such a passage, but now you can not.
I, too, after seeing it, do not think it refers necessarily to himself traveling to his other flocks. But He may have. Why are you so dead set against it?
Jesus is and always was God, but even after the Resurection He was also fully human. That is why it sounds like an unimaginative cop-out to say He is everywhere, and therefore couldn’t have traveled bodily to other places when He wasn’t with the apostles.
Maybe this will make you see the error of using God’s omniscience in your quip against my simple harmless speculations: The Protestants fall back on this same argument every time when Catholics try to help them try to accept that Jesus is the bread and wine of the Eucharist. After you read them the Bible, and tell them the power of the Eucharist, and tell them of the Church’s history, they say “God is everywhere, He is not especialy in any bread and wine.” They say we are limiting God to specific areas.
They think they are empowering God, but, in fact they are taking away one of His most powerful traits when dealing with us mortals: His very personal nature. Part of that is him being conentrated into definite areas that we can percieve as humans. He concentrates Himself in Saints, and in beautiful parts of nature. He told us He is in the least of us when we help them, or shun them. He says He is present when two of us gather in His name. But most especially, He concentrates Himself in Jesus, and in the Eucharist. Then, when we take the Eucharist, He concentrates Himself in us. One can always say “But He is everywhere”, and it can’t be denied. But its thinking like that that dulls our senses to where God is especially located.
So if you want to debate with evidence that Jesus didn’t go anywhere when He wasn’t with the apostles, that is fine. But please don’t use the same old “God is everywhere” to limit anything He might do (I’m not saying for sure that He went anywhere else after His Resurection).
Patrick
[/quote]

If you are referring to John 10 that doesn’t say he went anywhere. I agree with Quaere Verum. After the death and resurrection his teaching was spread by the Apostles.
There is nothing in Scripture, Apostolic Tradition, or any Church documents, views or opinions that suggest Jesus went to India or indeed any other country during his time on earth. Why are you so keen to defend that possibility.


#18

I was refering to John 10 only to show you that Jesus said He had other flocks. I mention that only in passing to show why Jesus might have gone abroad after He rose.
Lets review and then move past it.
Me: "As for Jesus saying He had another flock, I have only heard that from a friend and He couldn’t tell me where it is written."
You: “Your friend is wrong and the reason he can’t tell you where it is written is because it isn’t written anywhere.”

Moving on. Are you going to move from weak argument to the next in order to try to make me feel stupid for presenting that as a possibility?
Your latest weak argument is that the Apostles spread Jesus’ message after His resurection. That is true. Of course they did and I never said they didn’t. But that doesn’t mean Jesus didn’t pave the way in some cases. We know He did with Paul by visiting him in His glorified body, and we know the Bible tells us that He did a great many things not written (John 21:30-31).
I am not overly keen on defending it as a possibility, any more than you are for defending it as an impossibility. I am just presenting it, and I will search for any evidence in “Scripture, Apostolic Tradition, or any Church documents”.
If I am wrong I have lost nothing. The Bible has all that we need and as you said it contains nothing about Him traveling to India. But it does have Him traveling to Damascus (150 miles from where He also appeared many times, Jerusalem).
I don’t wish to argue with you, just to show you where I am coming from. You and I both believe that Jesus died on the cross and rose again. That’s all we need. Those who say he didn’t die and went to India, might be mistaking the Risen Jesus for a Jesus that never died because they lack that faith. Or they might be completly wrong and Jesus stayed within 150 miles of Jerusalem. Either way, I am just curious and I already have what I need in the accounts of the Bible.
Patrick


#19

[quote=TheRaiders]I was refering to John 10 only to show you that Jesus said He had other flocks. I mention that only in passing to show why Jesus might have gone abroad after He rose.
Lets review and then move past it.
Me: "As for Jesus saying He had another flock, I have only heard that from a friend and He couldn’t tell me where it is written."
You: “Your friend is wrong and the reason he can’t tell you where it is written is because it isn’t written anywhere.”

Moving on. Are you going to move from weak argument to the next in order to try to make me feel stupid for presenting that as a possibility?
Your latest weak argument is that the Apostles spread Jesus’ message after His resurection. That is true. Of course they did and I never said they didn’t. But that doesn’t mean Jesus didn’t pave the way in some cases. We know He did with Paul by visiting him in His glorified body, and we know the Bible tells us that He did a great many things not written (John 21:30-31).
I am not overly keen on defending it as a possibility, any more than you are for defending it as an impossibility. I am just presenting it, and I will search for any evidence in “Scripture, Apostolic Tradition, or any Church documents”.
If I am wrong I have lost nothing. The Bible has all that we need and as you said it contains nothing about Him traveling to India. But it does have Him traveling to Damascus (150 miles from where He also appeared many times, Jerusalem).
I don’t wish to argue with you, just to show you where I am coming from. You and I both believe that Jesus died on the cross and rose again. That’s all we need. Those who say he didn’t die and went to India, might be mistaking the Risen Jesus for a Jesus that never died because they lack that faith. Or they might be completly wrong and Jesus stayed within 150 miles of Jerusalem. Either way, I am just curious and I already have what I need in the accounts of the Bible.
Patrick
[/quote]

I believe what the Church teaches and that is based on Scripture and Apostolic Tradition.
It does not teach that Jesus went to India or anywhere else (prior to his death or after his resurrection).
I’m not sure why you say any argument I make is weak as I’m simply stating that the Church does not teach us what the friend of the OP hinted might have happened.
I’m sorry you feel I was trying to make you feel stupid because that was not what I implied or intended. Maybe you are a bit over sensitive due to your age.


#20

No, its just that you have short quips as if they end all discussion and anything I wrote does not need to be adressed.
I am young, and I am argumentative.
But your arguments are weak becasue they are saying because of this, then not this. The problem is that it could be this and this are true if you catch my drift.
God being everywhere, doesn’t mean Jesus didn’t go to specific places while He was on earth.
The Apostles spreading the word of God does not mean that Jesus did not also spread the word of God.
The Bible not having something in it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen (John 21:30-31).
The Church not teaching officialy one way or another on a topic doesn’t mean that you can’t believe in something that doesn’t conflict with anything else (though I have to be careful, because a lot of times I find out it does).
Also, you not hearing about one teaching of the Church doesn’t mean it does not exist. A lot has been revealed since Biblical times that the Church accepts as not conflicting with the Bible and Tradition.
Who is OP?


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