Zeitun


#1

zeitun-eg.org/stmary9.htm

Wow, what do my muslim bretheren have to say about this?

Being accused of being emotional by some forum members in my posts, I have this to say, and what is wrong with that?

Are we not emotional beings? I see the Truth in my heart, can I comprehend God? Can you comprehend God?

So the Truth finally rests in our hearts.

Peace and the Love of God.


#2

The sites remind me of these biblical passages :-

Luke 1 and 2
… 26In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

29Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. 31You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. 32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."   …

34"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?" 
35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. 36Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. 37For nothing is impossible with God."  
38"I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her. 

39At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth. 41When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. 45Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!” ….

46And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
50His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
52He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
53He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
54He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55to Abraham and his descendants forever,
even as he said to our fathers."
57When it was time for Elizabeth to have her baby, she gave birth to a son. 58Her neighbors and relatives heard that the Lord had shown her great mercy, and they shared her joy.

Luke 2
… 34Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: “This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, 35so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too.”

Thanks, Hawk, for the sites. They are very touching.
I must admit that I am not much of a Marian myself in spirituality. Having said that, nothing take away my honor and veneration to our Lady.

This is the young maiden, who not by choice of her own, but chosen by God, to be the mother of a Son, and that destiny will be like a sword that pierce through her in seeing her Son going through His suffering and death for the sake of many.

And since then she has never abdicated the role of the handmaid of the Lord. She continues bringing all those meant to be saved to Jesus her Son.

Peace.

Reuben.


#3

Hawk, if those pictures really strengthen your belief, more power to you.

Send me a couple pictures of middle eastern churches and I’ll do my best to get you some more apparition pictures within a couples days. I’m not the best at photoshop, but even with a rudimentary understanding this should be quite easy. Heh, why not increase your emaan right?

…geez.

And you use this as proof…?..

wow
…and backwards…
wow


#4

[quote=jcaz]Hawk, if those pictures really strengthen your belief, more power to you.

Send me a couple pictures of middle eastern churches and I’ll do my best to get you some more apparition pictures within a couples days. I’m not the best at photoshop, but even with a rudimentary understanding this should be quite easy. Heh, why not increase your emaan right?

…geez.

And you use this as proof…?..

wow
…and backwards…
wow
[/quote]

And you said we made fun of Islam? Is this your idea of discussion?

If this is how Islam teaches you to treat others you can be assured I’ll never have anything to do with it. I can see why Hawk converted.

BTW, the pictures were from 1968. Long before Photoshop.


#5

No, this is not a discussion. It is very amuzing how hawk can even suggest that these are proofs for the Catholic faith. It was hawk who very confidently stated:

Wow, what do my muslim bretheren have to say about this?

So I responded.

The point still stands, as shown in the other thread, that if you can use this types of pictures or “miracles” as evidence that your religion is the truth, then ACCORDING TO YOUR LOGIC, not mine, BUT YOUR LOGIC, then you must also accept as true any other religion that can bring forth similar examples of “miracles”. And everyone knows that “miracles” happen in various religions. Heck, right here in America, native American religions believe that they are healed miraculously all the time.

So this shows the fault in this logic.

And I was not joking with hawk. If he does have some more pictures of old churches, I’ll do my best to make some more apparitions for him.


#6

I think this is more clear.

http://members.aol.com/bjw1106/zeitun.gif

In Christ,
selvaraj


#7

[quote=jcaz]Hawk, if those pictures really strengthen your belief, more power to you.

Send me a couple pictures of middle eastern churches and I’ll do my best to get you some more apparition pictures within a couples days. I’m not the best at photoshop, but even with a rudimentary understanding this should be quite easy. Heh, why not increase your emaan right?

…geez.

And you use this as proof…?..

wow
…and backwards…
wow
[/quote]

Jcaz,

In the Bible Jesus has this to people like you :slight_smile:

John 20:30-31 “Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.”

John 10:38 “but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

The signs have never stopped, because this is the testament of Truth, Signs that only God can do.

Are there signs of God outside of the faith?

I have yet to see a faith that is replete with supernatural signs like Christianity.

Islam is completely bereft it would seem.


#8

[quote=jcaz]Hawk, if those pictures really strengthen your belief, more power to you.

Send me a couple pictures of middle eastern churches and I’ll do my best to get you some more apparition pictures within a couples days. I’m not the best at photoshop, but even with a rudimentary understanding this should be quite easy. Heh, why not increase your emaan right?

…geez.

And you use this as proof…?..

wow
…and backwards…
wow
[/quote]

jcaz

members.aol.com/bjw1106/marian7.htm

In the above web address, the first paragraph of the article says that over a million people have seen the apparition which occured in a span of 3 years. Apparition was broadcasted on Egyptian TV, photographed by HUNDREDS OF PROFESSIONAL PHOTOGRAPHERS AND PERSONALLY WITNESSED BY EGYPTIAN PRESIDENT ABDEL NASSER, AN AVOWED MARXIST. Doctors reported NUMEROUS UNACCOUNTED HEALINGS.

EGYPTIAN PRESIDENT ABDEL NASSER!!! CAN YOU IMAGINE THAT???
There are many Muslims in Egypt. They too have seen this apparition!!! Why should you be surprised??? Muslims say they are decendants of Abraham through Hagar then through Ishmael. It is in ALL CHRISTIAN BIBLES. THE ANGEL GABRIEL APPEARED TO HAGAR IN THE DESERT. In a time where there were no ultrasound machines nor xray machines, THE ANGEL GABRIEL TOLD HER THAT HER CHILD WOULD BE A MALE AND WOULD BE NAMED ISHMAEL, AND WHO WOULD NOT GET ALONG WELL WITH HIS FELLOW NEIGHBORS. It is in Genesis chapter 16, and because Genesis is an Old Testament Book, it means it is also in the Jewish Holy Books. You don’t have to prove it to us!!! We believe that the Archangel Gabriel APPEARED TO HAGAR IN THE DESERT!!! THE ARCHANGEL SAID THAT HER DECENDANTS WILL BE SO NUMEROUS TO COUNT!!! AND THIS IS CONSISTENT WITH GOD’S PROMISE TO ABRAHAM THAT HIS DECENDANTS WILL BE NUMEROUS LIKE THE STARS IN THE SKY!!! If you look at the picture of OUR LADY OF GUADALUPE, you will see that her image which miraculously appeared on Juan Diego’s tilma, a mexican indian AZTEC type winter overcoat, THE VEIL IN HER IMAGE IS FULL OF STARS!!! A MAP OF THE CONSTELLATIONS OF THAT VERY DAY WHEN SHE APPEARED TO JUAN DIEGO DEC 12, 1521. Those stars represent the DECENDANTS OF ABRAHAM!!! DECENDANTS OF HAGAR ARE BIOLOGICAL DECENDANTS OF ABRAHAM!!! GUADALUPE IS ARABIC FOR RIVER, FOX, A NAME WHICH MUSLIMS THEMSELVES GAVE TO A RIVER IN SPAIN.

Most likely it was DECENDANTS OF HAGAR WHO WERE THE FIRST VISITORS, THE SHEPHERD WHO ALLOWED MARY AND JOSEPH AND JESUS TO STAY IN THE HOUSE OF THEIR ANIMALS IN THAT FIRST CHRISTMAS DAY WHEN ALL THE HOTELS WERE FULL!!! YOU THINK JOSEPH AND MARY AND JESUS WILL EVER FORGET THE KINDNESS OF THOSE DECENDANTS OF HAGAR WHO HELPED THEM??? WHERE WOULD JESUS HAVE BEEN BORN IF NOT FOR THE KINDNESS OF THE DECENDANTS OF HAGAR??? EVEN IN BETHLEHEM TODAY WHERE THAT FIRST CHRISTMAS OCCURED, IT IS FULL OF PALESTINIANS!!! SO IT MUST HAVE BEEN THEIR ANCESTORS WHO HELPED JOSEPH, MARY, AND THE NEWLY BORN JESUS!!! AND THEY HEARD ANGELS SINGING THAT VERY FIRST CHRISTMAS NIGHT!!!


#9

David Copperfield can “make” the statue of liberty dissappear. A simply aparition should not be too difficult.

But bottom line, whether it truly happened or not is not a proof for a faith.


#10

[quote=jcaz]David Copperfield can “make” the statue of liberty dissappear. A simply aparition should not be too difficult.

But bottom line, whether it truly happened or not is not a proof for a faith.
[/quote]

He claims to use technology, and not magic.
:slight_smile:

Ofcourse it is proof, it is supporting evidence to the veracity of the Faith.

Evidence that islam is bereft of.


#11

Well hawk, if you consider it evidence, than buddy, just take it and run with it, because that’s all you have on your court.


#12

[quote=jcaz]Well hawk, if you consider it evidence, than buddy, just take it and run with it, because that’s all you have on your court.
[/quote]

Interesting,
We have scripture and it is supported by signs.

The point you dont get, is that there is no reason, whatsoever to believe islam.

Here is the situation, a man is given 2 conflicting passages.

He is shown real experience , that one is true.

The other claims to be true, but has no evidence to support it.

I know what any rational person will choose as the Truth.


#13

I really hope his next response doesn’t involve Allah’s name written in a tomato! :smiley:


#14

Islaam has the truth. Islam has the message of all of the prophets. Islaam has what mankind needs, and because your belief is devoid of this, because you cannot provide evidences for many of your baseless beliefs, you feel the need to nuture your insecurities by constantly talking about signs or miracles, which can be found in the most pagan of religions.

As stated previously hawk, since you consider this as a proof, take it and run with it, because it’s all you have. And sadly, those emotional tactics will work with many blind people.

But you will never be able to guide anyone no matter how hard you try, if Allaah chooses to misguide him, and you will never ever be able to misguide anyone, no matter how hard you try, if Allaah chooses to guide him.


#15

[quote=jcaz]Islaam has the truth. Islam has the message of all of the prophets. Islaam has what mankind needs, and because your belief is devoid of this, because you cannot provide evidences for many of your baseless beliefs, you feel the need to nuture your insecurities by constantly talking about signs or miracles, which can be found in the most pagan of religions.

As stated previously hawk, since you consider this as a proof, take it and run with it, because it’s all you have. And sadly, those emotional tactics will work with many blind people.

But you will never be able to guide anyone no matter how hard you try, if Allaah chooses to misguide him, and you will never ever be able to misguide anyone, no matter how hard you try, if Allaah chooses to guide him.
[/quote]

Asalaam 'Alaykum Brother,

Go in peace.

:slight_smile:


#16

wa 'alaykum hawk.

Thank you. What a nice ending to this thread!

Good night.


#17

[quote=jcaz] if Allaah chooses to misguide him, and you will never ever be able to misguide anyone,
[/quote]

Does Allah actually misguide people or were you just being hypothetical? If he does misguide people, why does he do this?


#18

I think I can summarize the content of this debate so far:

hawk - supernatural signs and wonders add credibility to the Catholic religion.

jcaz - Islam is the truth. I don’t need any proof of this, but hawk still must prove the validity of his religion. Supernatural signs don’t count. Why? Because I said so.


#19

The undeniable FACT IS Jesus is a PROPHET PROPHET PROPHET PROPHET PROPHET TO BOTH MUSLIMS AND MUHAMMAD. This being a FACT, THIS IS WHAT THE PROPHET JESUS SAYS: (see John 10:38 in the 2nd quote mentioned by Hawk)

[quote=hawk]Jcaz,

In the Bible Jesus has this to people like you :slight_smile:

John 20:30-31 “Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.”

JOHN 10:38 “but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”

The signs have never stopped, because this is the testament of Truth, Signs that only God can do.

Are there signs of God outside of the faith?

I have yet to see a faith that is replete with supernatural signs like Christianity.

Islam is completely bereft it would seem.
[/quote]

IF YOU FOLLOW MOHAMMED, YOU WILL END UP WHEREVER MOHAMMED WENT.

IF YOU FOLLOW THE PROPHET JESUS YOU WILL END UP WHERE JESUS WENT. AND MUSLIMS AND MOHAMMED ALL SAY THAT JESUS IS IN HEAVEN.

MUSLIMS HAVE SAID HERE IN THIS CATHOLIC ANSWERS EXPERIMENTAL ISLAM SUB-FORUM THAT THE BODY OF MUHAMMED IS IN THE GRAVE. WHEN ASKED WHERE MUHAMMED’S SOUL IS, THEY ALSO SAID THAT IT IS IN HIS GRAVE. In the MUSLIM BELIEF, I think it was Faith 101 who said in this CATHOLIC ANSWERS EXPERIMENTAL ISLAM SUB-FORUM that when a muslim dies, his body is in the grave. His soul is brought before God then returned to the grave. And that according to Muslim posters here is what also happened to the body and soul of Muhammed.

IT IS YOUR RIGHT TO FOLLOW MUHAMMED WHEREVER HE WENT. BUT JUST REMEMBER THAT AFTER THE DEATH OF MUHAMMED, MUSLIMS CANNOT SHOW IN THIS FORUM THAT GOD HAS EVER DONE MIRACLES FOR MOHAMMED but Catholics have shown here many miracles which God did in answer to prayers to Catholic Saints AFTER their deaths - WHICH ARE EVIDENCES THAT THEY ARE FRIENDS OF GOD AND ARE IN HEAVEN WITH GOD AFTER THEIR BODIES DIED!!!


#20

[quote=jcaz]Islaam has the truth. Islam has the message of all of the prophets. Islaam has what mankind needs, and because your belief is devoid of this, because you cannot provide evidences for many of your baseless beliefs, you feel the need to nuture your insecurities by constantly talking about signs or miracles, which can be found in the most pagan of religions.

As stated previously hawk, since you consider this as a proof, take it and run with it, because it’s all you have. And sadly, those emotional tactics will work with many blind people.

But you will never be able to guide anyone no matter how hard you try, if Allaah chooses to misguide him, and you will never ever be able to misguide anyone, no matter how hard you try, if Allaah chooses to guide him.
[/quote]

In addition of Muhammad, who saw the Archangel Gabriel, why do we have to have faith in something we can´t see, and only saw him. Fatima was seen by three people, it´s already a more true revelation that Muhammad that was seen by only him,“in theory”.
However, Zeitun was seen by thousands of people, but you don´t believe.


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