Hi, I was wondering wether any of you know of the zoroastrian religion, wich claims that alot of the jewish practices and beliefs were taken from the avesta, (like afterlif, messiah, angels and demos, 40 days in the desert, etc) wich apparently outdates the old testament. Thanks!
Zoroastrianism set a lot of precedents. It’s one of the earliest known revealed religions, it was the first to posit an either-or between a single good and a single evil power (although it is technically dualist as Ahura Mazda and Ahriman are more or less equal, the religion assures that good will triumph), and it also endorses a universalist philosophy of salvation.
Zoroastrianism does predate Judaism, and postulates an afterlife and the existence of spirits akin to angels and demons. I don’t know about 40 days in the desert, and Zoroastrianism does not have a Messiah prophecy that I know of – it is supposed to have been revealed in whole to Zoroaster.
I think it’s fair to say that Judaism owes some components of its theology to Zoroastrianism, but it also added a good deal of its own.
It was the Persian emperor Cyrus, a Zoroastrian, who directed the Jews to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple at the end of the Babylonian Captivity. IIRC.
Perfect time to come out of my lurking.
Zoroastrianism happens to be one of my favorite ancient religions to study.
There are actually several different branches of Zoroastrianism, which differ in their beliefs.
Zoroaster’s original “revelation” was in practice monotheistic. It taught that Ahura Mazda(Wise Lord) (Ohrmazd in Middle Persian), the one eternal uncreated God, created the universe with a specific order, called Asha(Truth). This order is constantly being threatened by Druj,(anti-creation, chaos, evil, lies etc.) The way to keep Druj in check is with Good Thoughts, Good Words, and Good Deeds, with humanity and all creation involved in this protection. Humans have free will to accept or decline this responsibility. At the end of time, Ahura Mada will be able to defeat Druj once and for all. Zoroaster did not teach that Ahura Mazda was Omnipotent. In come the daevas, which Zoroaster labeled as false gods born of evil thinking (probably Druj), to be rejected as not true gods(sort of like demons). The leader of which was Angra Mainyu (Ahriman in Middle Persian). He tempts the other daevas into worst thinking. They then tempt Zoroaster to turn from his teachings, they fail, and are cosigned to the netherworld. they will be defeated at the end of time by Ahura Mazda. All this can be found the Yasna, which mdeup the main liturgical text of the Avesta. From what I’ve read, it can get quite confusing.
Zurvanism was an offshoot of traditional Zoroastrianism, which is a dualistic religion. It first arose between 370 and 300 BC. It taught that the deity Zurvan, time, had two “sons” Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu. It has three main schools of thought:
Aesthetic viewed Zurvan as undifferentiated Time, which, under the influence of desire, divided into reason (a male principle) and concupiscence (a female principle). This form wasn’t very popular.
Materialist challenged the *ex nihlo *concept. They defined spirit as something that did not yet have matter, or unformed primal matter.
Fatalistic taught that the fate of the universe was set, and that the constellations(good), and planets(evil) decided the destiny of mortals. This form seems to be influenced by the Chaldean’s astrology.
The above theologies are often confused, but modern Zoroastrianism considers Zurvanism THE heresy. Although Zurvanism is closer to the original teachings of Zoroaster than the polytheistic rationalizations of natural phenomena that Zoroastrianism had almost become by the end of the Achaemenid period.
Modern Zoroastrianism, IS monotheistic. Basically in 1884, Martin Haug proposed a new interpretation to Yasna 30.3 in Zoroaster’s writings.According to Haug’s interpretation, the “twin spirits” of 30.3 were Angra Mainyu and Spenta Mainyu, the former being literally the 'Destructive Spirit and the latter being the ‘Bounteous Spirit’ (of Mazda). Further, in Haug’s scheme Angra Mainyu was now not Ahura Mazda’s binary opposite, but—like Spenta Mainyu—an emanation of Him. Since Mazda only created good, he taught that the free will gift of Ahura Mazda allowed Angra Mainyu to choose to be evil. These beliefs were controversial for a while, but are now almost universally accepted today.
Well that’s a cliff notes version of what I know about Zoroastrianism. I’d go into more detail about all their specific beliefs, but the text I learned most of my knowledge from is not with me at the moment. I can see where ancient Zoroastrianism could have influenced Judaism, and by extension, Christianity, as a act of fairness towards Zoroaster, but modern Zoroastrianism is almost certainly influenced by Christianity and other monotheistic religions.
BTW: My memory might be faulty, so some of the above information might be incorrect. I don’t think it is, but I’m willing to accept corrections.
I have wondered things like that myself. I came to realize that God was watching and speaking to all men pre flood and post flood. He cast aside the nations of men with Abraham and narrowed the manifestation of the works of His plan to these people. But the message of salvation was known to men before the writing of Moses. We see this evidence in the pre Hebrew nations. Their are many clues, and God is pleased with those that search them out. Proverb>> It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. So we can, “Do your best to present yourself (our selfs) to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.” I assure you that a mature Christian will have answers that glorify the Lord. Reading these forums it appears that maturity is not a strong point, nor is it something that is encouraged or sought. The very fundamental concepts are continually disputed and carry on endlessly. I apologize for sounding harsh but it appears that the baby’s can not determine what bottle it is that they should suckle. Hard questions are meet with generic answers, like we know were right we have the blessing of God. Which is no different than two kids that say my dad is better than your dad. This brings no glory to God, nor clarity to His word, it reaps the whirlwind instead of the harvest. I chose this hard topic for a reason. If you haven’t or can’t find Gods answers to this question here you will never effectively carry the message to the educated people that watch the History channel today or studied Greek in school. Waving a letter of authority means nothing if the pedigree is not present. Good day.
Who exactly are you talking to?
The big questions today are in the Mesopotamian story, the thousands of clay writings that were uncovered its parallel to the Biblical story ect.
Here is a clip of the secular statements.
The clay tablets of Mesopotamia, dating back as far as 3,500 B.C., were used to record the earliest writings of mankind. Mesopotamia is believed to be the birthplace of modern civilization, with the great city of Ur founded around 4,000 B.C. by the people of Sumer, a “providence” of Mesopotamia. Ur was a cultural and commercial center millennia before the rise of the Greek and Roman civilizations, and is thought to be the home of the biblical Abraham. These areas today lay in modern Iraq along the Euphrates and Tigris Rivers, fed by the Persian Gulf.
This is what in the bible is written about the Anakim:
Dt:1:28: Whither shall we go up? our brethren have discouraged our heart, saying, The people is greater and taller than we; the cities are great and walled up to heaven; and moreover we have seen the sons of the Anakims there. Dt:2:10: The Emims dwelt therein in times past, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; Dt:2:11: Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites called them Emims. Dt:2:21: A people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; but the Lord destroyed them before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead: Dt:9:2: A people great and tall, the children of the Anakims, whom thou knowest, and of whom thou hast heard say, Who can stand before the children of Anak! Jos:11:21: And at that time came Joshua, and cut off the Anakims from the mountains, from Hebron, from Debir, from Anab, and from all the mountains of Judah, and from all the mountains of Israel: Joshua destroyed them utterly with their cities. Jos:11:22: There was none of the Anakims left in the land of the children of Israel: only in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod, there remained. Jos:14:12: Now therefore give me this mountain, whereof the Lord spake in that day; for thou heardest in that day how the Anakims were there, and that the cities were great and fenced: if so be the Lord will be with me, then I shall be able to drive them out, as the Lord said. Jos:14:15: And the name of Hebron before was Kirjatharba; which Arba was a great man among the Anakims. And the land had rest from war. Gn:10:6: And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan. Gn:10:7: And the sons of Cush; Seba, and Havilah, and Sabtah, and Raamah, and Sabtechah: and the sons of Raamah; Sheba, and Dedan. Gn:10:8: And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one in the earth. Gn:10:9: He was a mighty hunter before the Lord: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord. Gn:10:10: And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. Gn:10:11:Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh, and the city Rehoboth, and Calah, Gn:10:12:And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same is a great city.
Everything from UFOs to plagiarism of the Bible has come from them. Be prepared to have an answer. Even an account of the gods / UFOs making hi bred people in a DNA fashion, in clay jars. Did you know that scientist today attempting to construct RNA and DNA from scratch have found that the most likely medium to do this in is clay. Yes clay was the necessary features to construct it. I don’t believe that they will accomplish it anytime soon but you know it happened all by its self according to Darwin. It the thorn in their side that scientist in all their knowledge can not reproduce even the parts necessary for simple life, let alone a living single cell animal. And the LORD GOD formed man from the dust of the earth, and breathed into him the breath of life. If you dont have answers to the plagiarism claims you have no witness to the men of the world.
Most anyone that is reading this forum.
And just what did your insight into Zoroastrianism provide for answers to the question of plagiarism. You can not just say that their is non because you or I can find them all over. Did you know that Egypt has dozens. Including the book of the dead has the equivalent of the 10 commandments? Simply saying that they dont exist is not a good answer.
Do you think that dragonlord8888 is a holy name becoming of one that spreads the message of the church. A little image from your my space site.
And your fav movie
Uh, the religion of Mesopotamia around that time wasn’t Zoroastrianism, it was many forms of polytheism. Zoroaster’s date has a wide margin, but a general date is between 1800BC and 1000BC. After Noah and Abraham, and either slightly before or contemporary with Moses. The Greeks dated him at 6000 BC, but I doubt it. I don’t know what you are getting at,but the tablets about bible parallels are mostly from Sumerian religion. Such as the Epic of Gilgamesh, with a parallel of Noah. If any Zoroastrian influence came into Judaism, and if it did, it was by the hand of God, it would have occurred during and or after the Babylonian exile, 586-537 B.C. The Persians were known for their religious tolerance, and they probably related well with the Jews due to them both being monotheistic. (Zoroastrianism was dominant in Persia and the surrounding areas until the rise of Islam.) Now that isn’t to say that there was influence, but the possibility remains open.
I can care less about what you think of my name, as it has no effect on me personally. I’m a Catholic, I like dragons, and that is the end of that. That picture was sent to me by a friend, who is a little odd.
Now as to there being an equivalent in the Egyptian Book of the Dead of the ten commandments, you are going to have to back that up. I have heard of no such thing in there.
There are dozens of other similarities. Just do a search on virgin born gods, god risen after 3 days, God born on Dec 25 ect. Do you know how common that is the 3 days? It comes from the fact that from Dec 22 to Dec 25 the sun does not move. It quits moving south for the shortest day of the year then stops from 3 days and then starts moving higher in the sky (north again) dead for 3 days and the rising again.
Krishna was born of the virgin Devaki
Savior Dionysus was born of the virgin Semele.
Buddha too was born of a virgin,
The old Teutonic goddess Hertha was a virgin impregnated by the heavenly Spirit and bore a son.
As “Virgin of the World,” Isis birthed Horus, the Egyptian god of the sun and moon
Ah well… chapter 125: book of the dead
Think you can find 10 that reflect the 10 given to Moses?
[The dead will say:]
Homage to you, Great God, the Lord of the double Ma’at (Truth)! You shall have no other gods before me.
I have come to you, my Lord,
I have brought myself here to behold your beauties.
I know you, and I know your name,
And I know the names of the two and forty gods,
Who live with you in the Hall of the Two Truths, 1
Who imprison the sinners, and feed upon their blood,
On the day when the lives of men are judged in the presence of Osiris. 2
In truth, you are “The Twin Sisters with Two Eyes,” 3 and “The Daughters of the Two Truths.”
In truth, I now come to you, and I have brought Maat to you,
And I have destroyed wickedness for you.
I have committed no evil upon men.
I have not oppressed the members of my family.
I have not wrought evil in the place of right and truth.
I have had no knowledge of useless men.
I have brought about no evil.
I did not rise in the morning and expect more than was due to me.
I have not brought my name forward to be praised. You shall have no other gods before me.
I have not oppressed servants.
I have not scorned any god. You shall have no other gods before me.
I have not defrauded the poor of their property. “Neither shall you steal.”
I have not done what the gods abominate. You shall have no other gods before me.
I have not cause harm to be done to a servant by his master.
I have not caused pain.
I have caused no man to hunger.
I have made no one weep.
I have not killed. “(Roman Catholic) You shall not kill / (Lutheran) You shall not murder”
I have not given the order to kill. “(Roman Catholic) You shall not kill / (Lutheran) You shall not murder” (but smarter)
I have not inflicted pain on anyone.
I have not stolen the drink left for the gods in the temples. “Neither shall you steal.”
I have not stolen the cakes left for the gods in the temples. “Neither shall you steal.”
I have not stolen the cakes left for the dead in the temples. “Neither shall you steal.”
I have not fornicated.
I have not polluted myself.
I have not diminished the bushel when I’ve sold it. “Neither shall you steal.”
I have not added to or stolen land. “Neither shall you steal.”
I have not encroached on the land of others. “Neither shall you steal.”
I have not added weights to the scales to cheat buyers. “Neither shall you steal.”
I have not misread the scales to cheat buyers. “Neither shall you steal.”
I have not stolen milk from the mouths of children. “Neither shall you steal.”
I have not driven cattle from their pastures. “Neither shall you steal.”
I have not captured the birds of the preserves of the gods. “Neither shall you steal.”
I have not caught fish with bait made of like fish.
I have not held back the water when it should flow.
I have not diverted the running water in a canal.
I have not put out a fire when it should burn.
I have not violated the times when meat should be offered to the gods.
I have not driven off the cattle from the property of the gods.
I have not stopped a god in his procession through the temple, 4
I am pure.
I am pure.
I am pure.
I am pure.
My purity is the purity the great Bennu (heron) in Heracleopolis. 5
Behold, I am the nose of the God of Breath, 6 who gives life to the people,
On the day of completing the Eye of Ra 7 in Heliopolis, 8
On the last day of the second month of winter,
In the presence of the pharaoh of this land.
I have seen the the Eye of Horus when it was full in Heliopolis!
Therefore, let no evil befall me in this land
In this Hall of the Two Truths,
Because I know the names of all the gods within it,
And all the followers of the great God.
I see your only 19 but you my not find the treasure hidden in video games LOL.
You are going to have to give me some time, but I can find refutations for all your virgin birth claims and others. I don’t know where you are getting your mythology from, but it isn’t correct. Give me some time to research, and I’ll find something.
Those simularities in that book are superficial at best. Honoring family and not killing, or stealing are trans-cultural values. The one statement about not having other gods is a coincidence, because the commandment is longer and more specific. As for those virgin births, I’ll get back on that. Most likely tomorrow.
Oh, and by the way, My favorite movie is The Passion of the Christ.
Ok light1house, I’ve got a website that refutes the so called, “parallel savior” nonsense. Certainly there are one or two similarities between Christ and some of these figures, but not a full parallel. As for Buddha, not mentioned in this website, he was a real person and his virgin birth can be refuted by a look at his biography. Hertha, another one not named, is another name for Nerthus, a Germanic goddess. What you don’t know, is that the religion of the Germanic was not written down by the Germanics. The authority of the Germanic culture comes to us through Tacitus, a first century Roman historian(Germania). Since he lived from AD 56 to 116, his time was after Christ.
Even still, the Eddas, dating to the 1200’s AD, do not mention Nerthus, so Tacitius might have been wrong. The church couldn’t have copied Germanic religion anyway: It wasn’t written down at the time.
Take the time to read this and be enlightened to the truth.
Here is Buddha’s biography( retaining to his birth):
No virgins here.
The parallel savior conspiracy is a relatively new one (only a couple centuries, and its developers certainly had an agenda) and is easily disproved through history.
Well I see that a discussion concerning simulator characteristics between catholic and older belief systems will not go anywhere. Here is a link en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Maya that says differently. But as I said the issue of the sources, that are from many credible historians, archeologist’s, ancient writings and artifacts is huge. Discrediting them or simply referencing the opinion of members of your church will never hold water in a simple court and jury that justly weighs the facts. You must provide an explanation that explains the facts and supports your claim of Jesus both. You have to show evidence of a common source of these beliefs then prove the original source was common to Jesus.
An example of properly handling the word is Acts chapter 7 just before Ch 7 it says
(And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spoke.)
Stephen then testifys Ch 7 about Jesus, beginning with Abraham to Moses and on to Jesus, using the evidence to convict them, they could not answer. Acts 7-57 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you
; He accuses them of resisting the Holy Spirit. You notice that Stephen did not wave his authority, had he done so the high priest would have waved his, leading nowhere. Instead he had evidence to support the facts. That is why I stated above, Waving a letter of authority means nothing if the pedigree is not present. The same conclusion is about to take place between you and I, you will rest on the letter of authority from statements from your church that deny the similarities, in spite of the evidence.
Let me tickle your brain, why do we have 360 degrees in a circle instead of 365, 600 or 300. Why are there 12 months in a year 12 signs in the zodiac 12 tribes 12 disciples. If you count the Levis their are 13 tribes. Ephrem and Menasa were Josephs sons from an Egyptian priestess, why did his father graph them in to the family and the LORD bless them. Why is the stone the builders rejected become the chief corner stone instead of the corner stone. Why is their a pyramid on our dollar bill that has no capstone, chief corner stone, uniting all four corners? Why are their 13 stone layers making both the base and hight of that pyramid on the seal? Why are there obelisk from Egypt in the Vatican, one in the center of St Peters square? Why is the Washington monument also shaped like a obelisk? Why is the District of Columbia DC cut out of both Virgina and Mary Land? Why do the 3 pyramids in Egypt appear to mirror the 3 stars of orions belt for that matter all the pyramids in Egypt reflect a star and the Nile river represents the milky way, is it a reflection of the heavens on earth? Why do some people think UFOs built the pyramid? Why is their also pyramids in S America? Angkor Wat temples in Cambodia is a representation of the constellation Draco it to mirrors the stars. Interestingly enough both the pyramids and the draco temple in Cambodia line up with the stars in 10.500 BC. This gives rise to the question of the dragon in Chinese and Japaneses cultures. Why do they also have a 12 sign zodiac? When we look at the stars why dont we see a lion a bull the hunter orion? You need a chart thats why, someone laid the chart out.
1 The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.
2 Day unto day utters speech,
And night unto night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language
Where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their words to the end of the world.
In them He has set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
And rejoices like a strong man to run its race.
6 Its rising is from one end of heaven,
And its circuit to the other end;
And there is nothing hidden from its heat.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God,
Grow up children.
Well I can see where you stand. I’m backing out. I could go to the ends of the earth and not convince you otherwise. As it stands, I don’t have the time, nor the energy to do so. You are going into far more than religious parallels with this, which allows for all sorts of lines to be drawn. Bottom line: Find your own answers. I’m done.
I have found answers, your reference to the Apologetics forum here is hardly the ends of the earth. Far more than religious parallels? What is religion? In my opinion it is the practice of men in association with their understanding of God. The whole history of man kind is based on religion. Bottom line, you take the Eucharist, Baptized in the church your saved end of story, simple like that. At the end of the day you will pull the authority of the church (Peter) simply because you have no other ground to stand on. This same scenario repeats itself over and over again threw out this site. Lets just cut threw the chase everyone and ether accept that the church is the authority or not. In light of the evidence that the church provides it leaves lots of unanswered questions the world is asking. That is my point. I don’t question your faith I simply ask you to provide answers.
I must say, your understanding of the catholic faith is not very good. We are saved by God’s grace, and He in His Incarnation established the Church. So yes, I suppose you could say that we are resorting to the Church’s authority, seeing as it is divinely instituted.
As for your claims, I’m going to take a shortcut by suggesting the book The Case for the real Jesus by Lee Strobel.
He interviews different historians, and one chapter covers the accusation of plagarism.
As for astrology, it is condemned in scripture.
Why is it that religiously indifferent people always say that all religions are true, but then try to debunk christianity…
I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t have all the answers. I trust the Church because I trust Christ. You really aren’t going to get what you want from me. Ask the right people the right questions and you will get your answers. I’ll be humble enough to admit that I’m not the one you are looking for.
My understanding of the catholic faith is not very good. In a nut shell its says that no one outside the church has the same salvation as the members. It is the sole authority on earth. The Pope is the consecutive line of this authority from Peter. This is the foundation that the church draws all its exclusive privileges. No one else can give the Eucharist communion, no one else has anything unless the church approves it. It is rather hard to get a handle on the church for reason that the members here dont even have a uniform understanding of it them selfs. Just by coincidence I just came from having a mid day breakfast and read an article in the USA Today about Public Relations and the Pope. blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2009/03/pr-and-the-pope.html
On Jan. 24, Pope Benedict XVI lifted the excommunications of four bishops from a traditionalist group known as the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX). It would appear that the Vatican is not very clear on this most resent issue ether. You would think that the vicar of Peter that has the world as a stage would take advantage of that and use it to personally speak to the world. But as the writer of the article noted,
In its dealings with the news media, the Vatican is severely handicapped by an institutional bias toward secrecy and a “need to know” approach to the release of news stories. Every reporter dealing with church soon learns the truth of the axiom: “Those who know don’t talk, and those who talk don’t know.” Just like White House reporters, Vatican specialists compete to be the first to break important stories.
I would think that the Pope Benedict XVI being the highest official on earth representing Christ would open his mouth and teach. Ending the disputes among members about what is or is not the church’s position. Do you think that if Peter, Paul, John or any of the Apostles having the same stage would sit and say nothing? Tis concerns me.
Astrology condemned by the bible, yes it is in its current state, reading your horoscope is blasphemy. Were the wise men from the east repromenaded for coming because the seen His star? What about the passages that I quoted, is David or Paul condemned in scripture for speaking of the stars? Or is God teaching Job the horoscope when He references His stars? Were looking for answers to hard questions here. as for your claim (As for astrology, it is condemned in scripture). Produce some evidence. Then tell me how God spoke to men and communicated His message of salvation before Abraham. Did He hide Himself to all men that they did not know Him before the Bible? Or did men not understand the message just as they do today, and twist it to meet their own needs and understanding.